Big Salary but no Savings or Retirement looking to get into the Ivies

Paying for College
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<p>The Ivys and other top schools that promise to meet need at various high income levels always include the caveat that the families with these high income levels are assumed to have “typical assets” for these levels.</p>

<p>I always thought that the typical assets caveat was in response to the top schools that would say things like: 10% of incomes up to 160k with typical assets…meaning that if you have higher than typical assets, then you may not get that 10% EFC. I’ve never thought it meant the reverse (unless maybe high debt was due to medical expenses).</p>

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<p>I don’t think the “typical assets” thing really explains it. That’s more of a disclaimer that they <em>won’t</em> give you as good aid for your income level if you turn out to have huge assets, not that they’ll give you even more if you don’t…</p>

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<p>*I don’t think the “typical assets” thing really explains it. That’s more of a disclaimer that they <em>won’t</em> give you as good aid for your income level if you turn out to have huge assets, not that they’ll give you even more if you don’t… *</p>

<p>I completely agree. I don’t think you get more aid if you don’t have “typical assets”.</p>

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<p>You need to read my post carefully. Acceptance was never an issue for my son at Stanford or any of the Ivies. He carries a 4.7 with all 5s on 5 APs as well as perfect scores on 4 subject matter SAT’s, probably typical of most attendees but not for african American prospects. All the admissions groups considered him a blue chip recruit so the issue was affordability. </p>

<p>Athletic scholarship offers can be and are usually offered in advance of acceptance. We had coaches from all over the country in our living room telling us what they can offer and they backed these up in writing. NCAA rules determine the timing of such offers. So, in his case, acceptance and offers were separate issues and he simply needed to decide where he wanted to go to school and live the binding early decision.</p>

<p>As it relates to FA, the Ivies who extended needs-based assistance did so based on not just 2010 income and assets (or lack there of) but also projected 2011 numbers. Therefore, a FASA analysis will yield little to no change and we were given written statements to this effect. This is also something that you can ask the Financial Aid dept at the school to do for you so that there are no surprises. Your child is pretty smart if he/she is going to a top school so it is incumbent on the parents to be smart also about their approach. </p>

<p>As I mentioned in my previous post, a big salary means very little if you have no capacity to borrow, huge medical bills, no savings and have had multiple bouts of layoffs. You are living paycheck to paycheck until you can refill the hole. We are luckier than most in this tough economy but when it comes to big collge costs the prospects of paying can be daunting. However, your child should not have to settle if they are truly gifted, smart and motivated students. You just need to put your pride aside and go advocate for the best school for your kid. Don’t be a Leming and listen to the so called experts. Every person’s situation is different and the right Ivy is there (if that is what you want) to listen and not judge and work with you.</p>

<p>Now, I also realize that my son was heavily recruited and that this is a part of the equation that most folks don’t have on their side. However, just based on his academic strengths alone I would have done the same thing. If it is your kid’s dream to attend a top school you owe them the effort. </p>

<p>While I was visiting the school that my son finally decided on I was told by the head of the Undergrad business school, the head of Finance as well as the Athletic Director that as i navigate the process at their school, I will come to appreciate why it is considered the “Working Man’s Ivy.” They truly are not all built the same. Good luck.</p>

<p>In terms of assistance ranking: Princeton and UPenn were generous. Harvard was less generous initially until they were presented with the pre-read from Princeton. Cornell, Dartmouth and Brown were fair and would likely work harder for us had he been 100% interested in attending those schools.</p>

85

<p>We heard the same tired points from so many people that we were ready to just give up ourselves.</p>

<p>Our 2010 and projected 2011 salaries were used to determine aid. Unless there is a substantial bump in income any additional cost you are presented with will be minimal. We had the FA head walk us through projected increases and what they might mean for years 2 through 4. </p>

<p>You don’t want any surprises down the road so it is incumbent on you as a parent to be smart about projections. If you walk into these offices expecting defeat then that is exactly what you will get. You will know immediately if these people are willing to work with you. If they aren’t then you need to leave the office and get a meeting with the actual head of the depratment. When I was not getting attention at Princeton I wrote a long email to the president and was given access to the right person within two days.</p>

<p>You need to employ every bit of marketing and negotiating skill you have or have someone who is capable in this area do it for you. the stakes are very high when you are talking about your kid’s future.</p>

86

<p>“huge medical bills”</p>

<p>Although posters asked about large medical bills, I don’t think you mentioned any previously and they are considered when determining FA. I don’t think you were given inaccurate or “dangerous” advice.</p>

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<p>“working man’s ivy” googles as Cornell. But all indications are Princeton or Penn. No one would call Princeton a “working man’s ivy” so I’m thinking that it is Penn. I think I will put a note in my calendar to check the sports rosters in the fall. It has been a fun puzzle of a ride.</p>

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<p>…also, “I was told by the head of the undergraduate business school”, pretty much confirms that it is Penn.</p>

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<p>It seems inappropriate to be “outing” the OP in ways he wished to keep private. If you’ve figured out some piece of the puzzle on your own, good for you, but I think people should keep these speculations and conclusions to themselves.</p>

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<p>hammerman - kudos to you for doing your research and working out a great result for your child. I want to point out that you are still missing something when you say “your child should not have to settle if they are truly gifted, smart and motivated students. You just need to put your pride aside and go advocate for the best school for your kid”. </p>

<p>While your preparation and persistence were certainly important, it’s just not that easy for 99.999% of the applicants that are talented enough to be offered admission at these need-based only schools. Even for highly sought after athletic recruits. The starting point for getting your end result was certainly that your child was qualified academically and was a top-tier athletic recruit. However, I believe what sealed the deal for you was the fact that your financial situation (job losses, high medical bills, etc) actually put you in a position where these schools were able to exercise “professional judgement” in evaluating your need. If you were a typical $250K earner, with typical assets and no special situations, I doubt highly doubt that you would have had the same result, regardless of your “advocating for your kid” the way you did. All schools that receive Title IV funding from the federal government have to follow their own published guidelines for evaluating and distributing aid. Even if they are not distributing federal $$, they still must follow their own institutional aid guidelines. When a family’s assets and income are standard, there is not much “wiggle room” for them to go out of their way to offer need based aid to a highly desired applicant, short of preferential packaging of grants and loans. However, your situation seems unique in that you have such a combination of unique financial circumstances that the FA officers were probably presented with an opportunity to exercise a very generous professional judgement. </p>

<p>So, good for you that you worked this out. However, don’t walk away thinking that it was just your great persistence and advocating for you child that made the difference, and that anyone else (even other highly sought after athletic recruits) could replicate what you did unless they were able to demonstrate a similar opportunity for a professional judgement.</p>

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<p>If you ask me (and nobody did, but I’ll speak anyway), the “dangerous” advice is tell parents of the ivy-hopeful masses that you, too, can get the same preferential treatment as the family of a heavily recruited world-class athlete. Yeah, we’re not going to get a response to a long e-mail to the president of Princeton, and we definitely won’t have the AD advocating for us. </p>

<p>An ivy with deep pockets bought itself a world-class athlete. There is absolutely no surprise there. What is surprising is that a parent thinks his child would receive the same treatment and financial aid “decision” had he not been so sought after on the playing field.</p>

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<p>Just to counterbalance the OP story: I know of a recruited athlete at an Ivy who decided to transfer after freshman year to take advantage of a full athletic scholarship. The coach was really upset, and sent the kid to the college president in hopes s/he would be convinced to stay. The college president then called financial aid and asked if a better package could be offered this student. The answer was no. Kid transfered. In this case, being a highly sought after athlete did not get this kid more financial aid.</p>

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<p>As other posters have said, you are supposed to qualify for FA in order for school to use discretion and raise the FA amount. Early posters did specify that size of family, number of children in college and existence of high medical bills could qualify a student for FA with a $250K+ salary. OP was also advised to apply for FA and see what would happen. I think it was OP who did not read posts carefully.</p>

<p>"If you have a REALLY big family, or especially if you will have more than one kid in college at the same time, you may qualify for a bit of aid.</p>

<p>Seems like pursuing an athletic scholarship (if the kid wants to continue in the sport) or merit aid would be the way to go (at non-Ivy schools)…" -Post 12</p>

<p>“Just an FYI…consumer debt (your mortgage, car payments, etc.) is not considered in the financial aid equation at all unless it’s for something unforeseen like high unreimbursed medical expenses.” -Post 13</p>

<p>“Hammer, really…the only thing you can do is apply…and apply for financial aid. You either will receive it…or you won’t.” -Post 9</p>

<p>In any case, congrats to OP’s son. Sounds like a superstar!</p>

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<p>However, I believe what sealed the deal for you was the fact that your financial situation (job losses, high medical bills, etc) actually put you in a position where these schools were able to exercise “professional judgement” in evaluating your need. If you were a typical $250K earner, with typical assets and no special situations, I doubt highly doubt that you would have had the same result, regardless of your “advocating for your kid” the way you did</p>

<p>Exactly!</p>

<p>The OP finally mentions high meidcal bills after 80+ posts. That is very important info. Without that caveat (and perhaps unstable job history…perhaps), the school may not have had the leeway to offer much aid without looking like they were violating conference scholarship rules.</p>

<p>That said…if unstable job history was a consideration, if the job/income stays stable for the next year or so, what’s to stop the school from no longer considering that and reducing aid? ** I would think that a “need based aid only” school would have a hard time justifying gving lots of money for 4 years straight IF DURING THOSE SAME 4 years, the family has earned a MILLION dollars…and the student is an athlete.** :/</p>

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<p>I don’t think my point has come across as clearly as i would like it to be articulated. </p>

<p>What I’m trying to say here is that even with my sons skills we were told not to even try based on our income. We were told so not just by some folks on this forum but by the Ivies themselves and other people who presented themselves as experts in admissions and financial assistance.</p>

<p>Additionally, even after we were told by the first two Ivies to which we applied that we did not qualify for any assistance after presenting our financial data and job loss background, including mediacal debt, all they saw was our salaries. However, these same Ivies reversed track and offered aid after we got assistance from a third school who truly analyzed our finances instead of just looking at our combined salaries.</p>

<p>While my kid is skilled with passing a ball, out running defenses and scoring points this did not matter to the financial aid departments, they are totally disconnected from the sports programs, as well they should be.</p>

<p>What matters is how you sell your circumstance. I could have stopped after the first three dismal reads but decided to plod ahead and see how well I could get these people, and it is important to realize that they are people making subjective decisions, to see our situation properly.</p>

<p>So, DukeDad, it truly is a function of your persistence and how you sell you situation. Life is an on going set of negotiations.</p>

<p>Again, I am not saying that every family out there is like mine and will have the same outcome. What i am saying is that there are many hurting families who make good money but have been hit hard by a cruel recession. As such, I am advising these particular people to close your ears to the nay-sayers and give it a try. </p>

<p>There are slices of the middle class that are absolutely being clobbered by circumstances similar to mine and have as great an inability to afford top tier schools as less fortunate folks. However, if you are less fortunate you have lots of assistance coming your way if your kid qualifies. </p>

<p>If you are afraid of approaching an Ivy because you think they will automatically turn you away based on your above average salary . . . you are absolutely right. My point is to let you know that it does not stop there. NO is just the first response but based on your circumstance and your persistence, is not necessarily the last response.</p>

<p>Here is a great article to read:</p>

<p><a href=“Financial Aid Changes Game as Sports Teams in Ivies Rise - The New York Times”>Financial Aid Changes Game as Sports Teams in Ivies Rise - The New York Times;

<p>It doesn’t fully speak to my circumstance but gives you an appreciation of how hard the schools are working to get academically solid recruits to consider their programs.</p>

<p>Good luck to you all.</p>

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<p>hmm…I don’t think these 2 statements about your son’s sport make sense…unless I’m missing something</p>

<p>“He is African American is ranked #1 in the world for his sport” </p>

<p>“While my kid is skilled with passing a ball, out running defenses and scoring points”</p>

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<p>My son was accepted to and will be attending an Ivy League school in 2012 and the financial aid was quite generous.</p>

<p>How generous does it have to be for a family making $250,000?
;)</p>

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<p>kmrcollege</p>

<p>His athletic achievements were relevant to the coaches but not to the Financial Aid groups. FA is separate and could care less what the coaches want. The term I heard earlier “Shopping Your Kid around” seems pejorative but is what you have to consider. You are working with massive institutions who shop for the best and brightest. Why should you not do the same.</p>

<p>geeps20: You are thinking locally. There are number of international sports at the Ivies that fall outside of our American-centric thinking.</p>

<p>The bottom line is some aid is better than no aid. What we received is based on our particular financial circumstance and factored into our actual need. We simply had to have someone recognize ouor need properly.</p>

<p>These schools aren’t going to violate rules for any kid. however, they have latitude to consider things that you may not know are possible. You just need to ask.</p>

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<p>Maybe we can change the tone of this thread. Purpose of CC is to inform and educate parents and their kiddos.</p>

<p>Hi Hammer!</p>

<p>I understand what you are saying specifically and in general. It just isn’t coming across like I am sure you want it to, hopefully to be helpful to others.</p>

<p>I too have a son that was heavily recruited for the ivies, MIT, CalTech, the academies. Yes he was a D1 athlete but he was not being recruited for that and he did not entertain offers to play during the app season, he kept that quiet. He later walked on to the team.</p>

<p>He too was a high scoring SAT, high gpa 5.3, 17 APs, numerous college credits URM. Our difference from your situation was a low EFC, zero actually. So I do understand the appeal of the need-based FA colleges. The contrast of your $250,000 income could, initially present as receiving little aid due to your higher income. Pell Grants, SEOG, work-study, federally subsidized loans are available to those with EFC’s under $5000 with 1 in college.</p>

<p>Those algebraic formulas are income heavy for the income variable. However, multiple college students, large medical bills, and other large one-time unforseen bills play into that formula as well. The allowances that are made for this are for institutional aid not federal.</p>

<p>What the other posters were saying and replying to your son’s situation were for MOST student’s financial situations based on the FA offices and the info provided to potential students. Again I think your son’s specific situation as was my son’s was unique.</p>

<p>And as you found out initially some schools were not willing to provide assistance until you had one FA package which provided you with leverage. Iwould call what your son is receiving as “preferential packaging”. I have 5 kiddos and 4 have been recipients of such.</p>

<p>It comes in different forms, full tuition, room, board, research funds, travel funds, wardrobe due to different climates, tuition for alternate schools, travel abroad, books+, laptops… Seen it all.</p>

<p>The only other difference in our scenario was I was not involved other than to assist in the FAFSA, Profile and the school’s specific FA forms.</p>

<p>All the back and forth, all the apps, all the travel, all the meetings with FA were done by the student. This was their education, their lives. The lessons they learned from it would be useful to them for the rest of their lives. How badly did they want it? It wasn’t for me, it was for them.</p>

<p>They knew the gift they had been given to warrant the attention they were receiving. Son knew what he was bringing to the school, to the community. He knew “to whom much is given, much is expected.” His education.</p>

<p>And yes, Penn and Princeton were the most generous. And after matriculation they were even more so. Another plus that was not initially revealed.</p>

<p>Your son’s FA situation can provide insight for others looking to FA, but with a caveat of his unique talents andaccomplishments. I have been on this site for years, decade now, and have found it to be extremely helpful and compassionate. It is only as good as the posters that post.</p>

<p>Welcome and if you stick around there are many who benefit from your lesson of not giving up and the craziness that is financial aid. I wish you and your son well!</p>

<p>Enjoy his college years, they will fly by! And if you think FA for undergrad is insane
son just completed it for medical school and it is worse!!</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>katwkittens: Thanks for your post. You are correct on all points. Especially regarding the purpose of CC.</p>

<p>As with your kids, my son was present at all the reads and involved in the process from inception to end. Like you, we needed him to take charge and advocate with the same zeal that we were. He had to put some skin in the game as well so he needed to know what loans were all about and how they affect one’s life. </p>

<p>He was sent away to do proper cost benefit analysis and not to just look at the school as a shiney new toy but would it afford him the future that he expects. This was important given that fact that he could have walked out of other schools with zero debt.</p>

<p>In the end, his debt will be minimal and he will get a a quality education. Thanks for your tempered and thoughful note. It’s nice to see there are otheres who have gone through similar situations and came out OK. </p>

<p>I look forward to your future posts.</p>