^^^^ I’m assuming Masters in Public Policy ?
I think people push themselves because they are naive, and their parents probably push them to do it a lot of the time (while exclaiming education is so prestigious or important or something to that effect). Times have changed a lot though - going to college is not a good idea for most IMO.
My high school classmates who never strived have normal jobs, work 9 to 5 and live in good houses in a cheap area. It’s not as if people who don’t strive don’t do fine in life. This is what I wish I knew in high school.
I don’t get why college students are STILL thinking of paying for law school on their own to attend. It’s crazy and bewildering to me. In law, if you “win” (and get Biglaw) you still lose out on a lot of your life. Not to mention, if you pay full price now, you’ll probably end up with $300k debt and a crappy, terrible salary in comparison. It would probably take you 5 to 6 years in Biglaw to pay off you loans with that debt. And that assumes you can manage your money. So many people in Biglaw are terrible at managing their money.
Also, I’d say half of my friends in law school had their parents pay full price. My closest friends from law school have parents with net worth $10mm+ (not lawyers or doctors of course). These kids aren’t struggling or worrying about paying loans. I don’t think people realize just how many rich kids go to the top law schools, who never have to worry about paying the bills. They are not in the same position as you and have a lot more flexibility to do whatever they want.
A lot of the people stuck in Biglaw are not “rich kids” and are get stuck there cause they end up having families or have no idea what else to do in life. I’d say most of my friends in Biglaw are not happy. And the ones who are happy are barely working in comparison.
NYULawyer - that’s advice that my friends and coworkers have given me. I am applying for jobs but thinking of maybe just doing something else entirely. Working an office job alone is miserable enough, let enough for so many hours in a day.
It’s funny cause I’d say a third of the people who recently quit my firm have quit law entirely. And when people hear about that, instead of replying with pity, they say “good for them.”
It’s a shame that people don’t heed this warning from current lawyers and that parents keep giving terrible advice about education in general (not just law school). Higher education in the US is an overpriced scam and is for the most part a bad idea. “Prestige” is all in your head - it’s not even real or needed to get most jobs.
What matters is enjoying your life on a daily basis (who knows, you might die the next day), and making enough money for a comfortable living. If you get wrapped up in the battle of “prestige” and whatever bullshit, odds are you will be unhappy (and likely more broke than people who didn’t pursue this in the first place).
The happiest people I know in life didn’t strive for bullshit and live comfortable lives. And as I mentioned earlier, the richest people I know went to no name state schools and don’t have graduate degrees.
You really need to recognize that you do not HAVE to stay in an expensive area. There is a whole country that doesn’t cost what New York, DC, and San Francisco cost to live in. And you don’t HAVE to stay in BigLaw. To me it feels like you are ignoring suggestions that you look at other kinds of law outside big law and/or moving out of New York.
My s/o wants to stay here for the time being (I want to move now). I am looking at other types of jobs, but am having a hard time convincing certain types of jobs (like public interest) or whatever that I want that job. I have some bites in the corporate sector, but am not sure I want to do corporate work.
I’ve been asked during interviews why i even want that job cause my resume is too corporate. I also went to top schools, but I don’t think people outside of biglaw and corporate world care as much about that. Hell - they might be holding my law school against me.
BigLawLawyer, again, “there’s no easy way”. Your friends who do not strive and who work 9 to 5 may have “good houses in a cheap area”, but their bank accounts are small; they may not work as hard, but they likely don’t have jobs that take the same intellectual stimulation that law will when you become more senior, and they probably don’t make as much or have the same range of opportunities that you do and/or will.
When I was at your level of seniority and was also in a big firm, I thought as you did- as did everyone else I knew in the same situation; your statements are exactly what every other junior/midlevel associate in Biglaw says. Once you have additional work experiences in other fields, you’ll see things differently.
What other fields though? Other legal environments or other office jobs outside of law?
I’m starting to get the impression that most corporate environments are just bad places to work. But at least most of the time it’s just 9 to 5.
Also, about bank accounts, I don’t even know if getting a “bigger bank account” is worth this crap.
Also, we will likely inherit between 2mm to 5mm, so if we did, I’d be pissed that I wasted half of my life being miserable, for 500k savings, just to get a slightly “bigger bank account.” And if we didn’t inherit, then c’est la vie - at least i wasn’t miserable for 20 years even if I have little savings. I just have to work longer at a lower paying job until I die. And I’d have enjoyed my youth more - I’ll probably be incapable of enjoying retirement like most people anyway.
“Other fields” for me has included in-house and non-Biglaw private practice.
Corporate can be 9-5 if you have a low-level job. If you have a job that pays six figures and is a job that someone with a good J.D. or MBA would have, though, the total number of hours can be similar to what you do in Biglaw; the hours are just more regular. When I was in-house (in a Fortune 50 company), I worked probably 60 hours a week, and the travel, post-work events, etc. took up a lot of time. Plus the stress, office politics, general meanness, etc. were brutal. After that, I realized that firms are the place for me.
One of my family members is not a lawyer. He works “corporate”, and he spends about 100 nights a year in hotels and racks up about 100,000 flight miles per year due to travel, away from his wife and kids. Is that better than at least coming home to your wife most days?
I don’t see how you could have only 500k in savings after years of law practice. I was a millionaire by my late 30s due to a Biglaw career path.
Because the cost of law school and living has not scaled comparably with salaries since you were in your 30s. Maybe 500k was a slight underestimate, but I doubt more recent law grads will have 1mm in savings by their late 30s if they live in a high COL area.
Most of my family and s/o’s family made their living and money by opening their own businesses. They worked a lot, but not lawyer hours, and on average made a shitload more money. Most of them retired with more investment income than lawyers make on average per year. Most of it wasn’t just sitting in an office doing paper work either. Their jobs were more interesting. And did I mention, they made a shitload more money on average. It’s riskier, but pretty much everyone in our families at least earned a reasonable living as business owners. Some of these family members are a lot richer than biglaw partners, too, as in they could be clients at a biglaw firm’s trust and estates practice. There are other ways to make a living aside from working for a large company or working for a firm. Maybe even start a solo practice. The mindset of “you can only work for others” is also partly what gets people stuck in a rut imo.
BiglawLawyer, I’m not much past my 30s. Also, when I started out, my first-year salary in Biglaw was $83,000. It went up to about $115,000 by my second or third year, but for the first few years of practice, starting salaries were far below $160k. Plus, I was in NYC then- and $83k per year didn’t go far. I was still able to become a millionaire by my late 30s due to law practice.
I also have relatives who were able to retire in their 50s and have net worths of $10MM+ each (which they earned themselves). They worked their tails off in their 20s and 30s. Their jobs were probably more interesting than 3rd/4th year Biglaw associate jobs are, but no more interesting- and perhaps less so- than more senior law jobs are. At least one of them retired when he was about 52 just because he couldn’t take the stress of his job–in a college (!)–anymore.
Again, you’re looking at things as though law- and Biglaw in particular- will always be what you’re stuck in now. It’s not so. Even Biglaw jobs get much more interesting and you get more control over your hours as you get more senior.
The cost of law school has probably quadrupled, if not 5x+, since you were in law school. And the COL has more than doubled in New York in the past 10 years alone. Plus given progressive tax rates, lawyers were probably a lot better off making 83k as a first year with much fewer loans/living costs. If someone were to take out full loans now, it’d be around 300k by the time of repayment. I think it’d probably take 5 to 6 years just to get a net worth of zero in Biglaw.
Sounds like your relatives were still workign for someone else though. If you own your own business, you have a lot more control over everything, given there is stress. But if you make it big, the stress is almost non-existent cause you will have so much money tied up in investments and stock and have to do little, if really no, work at all.
BiglawLawyer, no, law school costs haven’t quadrupled; they’ve just more than doubled. The COL in NYC has not doubled in NYC in the past 10 years. Tax rates applicable to me when I made $83k were higher then than they are now (post-Bush tax cuts). So all of those statements are demonstrably false.
Tell my relative who is 44 and who has a net worth of about $9 million that “the stress is almost non-existent” due to having “so much money” and having “to do little, if really no, work at all” and see how he responds. He works like a dog and is extremely stressed out and faces garbage that I’ve never had to in Biglaw or elsewhere.
Again, there’s no easy way. I’m done responding to your posts. You see life in Biglaw as awful and life outside Biglaw as better. It’s not. There is no easy way; few people have affluent lives without long hours and high stress; every job has downsides; you don’t get something for nothing; and life isn’t easy, period, regardless of what job you have. Once you’ve been through more varied experiences, you’ll learn these lessons. For now, you are naïve and negative.
Didn’t you go to law school 20 years ago. It costs 300k now by time of repayment. How much did you pay then? I bet it was less than 100k.
I also don’t care about legal experiencea outside of biglaw being worse or just as bad. From my observations law is on average a terrible field for quality of life anyway. And saving 1mm in ten years of bad hours and living in a box doesn’t seem that great to me. Go on believing that law is like most jobs or comparing corporate exec life to the average office job. Most people don’t live or work in a city like new York and most people don’t work a f500 job with high stress.
@HappyAlumnus, not everything can be fixed by just changing your attitude like you are telling the OP. I worked in big consulting for several years, and I know partners who would have said the same thing. But they were also slaves to their jobs. I don’t work in that environment any more, and am very glad I don’t. It isn’t for everyone. OP, you said in one of today’s posts that you are having a hard time convincing non-corporate entities to take you seriously – based on this thread you have been looking for something for what, a month or less? Give it time. Hone your pitch about wanting to do something different with your life.
And regarding your SO not wanting to move… what is his/her advice? Is it to suck it up? Move to a less lucrative position and he/she will support you? It is okay to move without him/her? An SO who can’t help brainstorm solutions with you when you are this miserable isn’t necessarily a great life partner, IMHO. Just sayin’.
@intparent, of course, you’re right, but changing one’s attitude can certainly make any situation better, and having a good attitude is important, no matter how awful life gets (and believe me, I’ve been through a lot).
It does no good to be negative–particularly naïve and negative.
Having a good attitude is important, but big law is objectively worse than most other jobs (not just law jobs). I don’t see why we are even arguing about that.
Also, you don’t seem very happy if you want me to be honest. It’s hard to take advice about being positive from someone who comes off as miserable in posts, gets frustrated at other posters on a forum, and also tells me that they have disliked or hated every legal job they have had except one.
People can legitimately hate big law and know it is not for them. It would be hard on the mental health of a person in that position to try to sweep it under the rug in the name of “attitude adjustment”.
My SO is okay, but hesitant, about me looking for jobs elsewhere and doing LDR for awhile. It would probably be at least a couple of years before SO can relocate. SO makes a lot less money than me and I pay most of the rent and utilities right now, which is what makes it hard. SO’s parents have offered to help with the bills if I take a lower paying job and stay here though (but I’m not sure that’s a good idea). So my main two options now are take a lower paying, chiller job here and have parents help or look elsewhere and remain financially independent (at least I would be, SO might need parents help to pay the bills here) but have to do LDR.
How much of a cut in pay are you willing to take? Have you considered being a hearing officer? Applying for state, county and federal jobs? Working in a bank as in house counsel? An insurance company as in house counsel? Yes, it can be tough and can require a significant cut in pay but it might allow you to get a better work/life balance. Some of the government jobs really pay a fraction of what you get now–we have many in our state paying 5 figures. Will that work for you?
I am an attorney have have seen a LOT of attorneys burn out. Some do switch to government or one of these other types of jobs where a law background is helpful but not required. I am running a nonprofit I started but it doesn’t pay unless you go and scramble regularly for grants and funding. It’s OK that we don’t make much as it costs very little to keep our organization going, but a lot of nonprofit jobs have very low pay (some do offer some forgiveness of educational loans as a benefit).