Biglaw Burnout

Graduate School Law School
41

Yes, I have worked overseas. I have also worked in the US outside of NYC.

Biglaw Lawyer, having tried multiple career options before, I just don’t see that the promised land in suburbia, and life outside of BigLaw, will be all that you think it’s cracked up to be, particularly if you take a significantly lower-paying job and/or a job outside of law. I’ve been there and done that. Junior associate jobs in Biglaw are generally very rough. More senior jobs in Biglaw are not as rough, and legal jobs in law outside of Biglaw are not as rough. No job is a walk in the park; remember, jobs are paid because they’re not fun and games; if they were, people would volunteer to do them.

My law school roommate, who started off at a top-5 firm, again, is now under-challenged in a dinky job outside of NYC, lives in a condo that his parents own, makes little and is totally miserable, and now he cannot return to a higher-profile legal (or other) career, due to the rut that he’s in. Don’t make the mistakes that he made.

42

My ex-H was a tax attorney for a state government (revenue department). He never earned more than $70K per year before he retired. Just saying. OP, I do think you are learning (the hard way) that high pay usually requires very hard work that isn’t always enjoyable. And sometimes it just isn’t worth sticking with a particular job. But I can tell you from experience in the big consulting world, and as an independent consultant for many years since then, that every assignment, every firm, every client are NOT the same. Some are much better, and some are much worse than others. I now earn a very good living AND only take on the jobs and clients that I think I want. Don’t give up the education you worked so hard for after ONE terrible firm experience. Try something else within law (smaller firm?).

Also… I think that different specialties in law do feel somewhat different. Example: my estate attorneys on a large estate I worked on several years ago were a godsend. They really helped me get through the maze of legal complexities, and deal with a horrible litigious heir as well. I never begrudged these guys a penny that I paid them. They worked in a firm of maybe 20-25 attorneys in Denver. And even though the older of the two had been doing this work for a long time, he still learned a few new things on our case (some twists in another state’s law where some of the property was owned). Also, there was some litigation, some trust components, some reporting to the court, meeting with us to advise us on steps to take, etc. A variety of activity. I wouldn’t want to work in biglaw at all, but I think these guys had a pretty good thing going.

43

^^^OP, what about that idea…take a year to go back and get your LLM…then get recruited fresh by wills, trusts, estate firms? I’m guessing the hours would be more sane in that specialty, and the climate more collegial.

44

^No, not falling for that scam of higher education. Higher education in the US is the biggest for profit scam aside from healthcare. I already paid for a JD, not going to pay for an LLM.

Another day in biglaw - another day questioning WHY THE FUCK I am still doing this. There has got to be more in life than working, and working on stupid stuff all the time that seems pointless.

The worst part is - I could have done anything with my life. I did very well in school in all subjects. I loved math. I could have just done engineering straight out and said screw graduate school.

And I know I am not alone. Most people I talk to in biglaw on a personal level are just looking for ways to get out, and half the time, out of the profession. Why work your entire life away on pointless shit? How do people even find a purpose doing stuff like this for 12 to 18 hours a day?

Your youth only lasts for a little while - why waste it in biglaw?

45

I know what you mean. The happiest lawyers I know are the ones who aren’t lawyers anymore.

It’s a sad fact of life, however, that most well-paying careers require training or education of some kind. If you had an aptitude for math/science/engineering, what about going back for an engineering degree? Before you balk at the cost…perhaps you could get a huge scholarship at a lesser school. You might have a year or two of gen ed/prerequisites already done. With a dual degree, I would think jobs would be plentiful even if your degree was from a lesser technical school.

Just a thought. Trying to brainstorm here.

46

I have thought about it - I am behind on coding though. I have thought about other degrees (for free at local state university).

I think PhD students got it right - stay in school for as long as possible while not paying anything. Then continue in academia…because the real working world is terrible (at least biglaw is).

47

“Behind on coding”? I wouldn’t know the first thing about coding. You have some valuable interests/talents outside of law, sounds like. I think you should seriously consider pursuing a free (or at least cheap) degree in an area you like. Combining this with your law degree could open up some career avenues/opportunities, especially in a technical area.

Not sure about academia as a career. I think the pay can be terrible without tenure, which is becoming extremely rare.

48

A couple of thoughts:

Not to be too cynical, but there aren’t jobs out there that are high-paying, low stress, and intellectually engaging and meaningful. You are either going to take a huge pay cut or have a not-great quality of life. No one pays you gobs of money to be happy and intellectually stimulated. Just pick whichever downside you can live with best.

That said, separate your problems into manageable chunks. There’s the law problem, and then there’s the NYC problem. Nothing against anyone who lives in NYC, but the description of it as “a playground for the rich and a trap for everyone else” is accurate. Even cities like Boston and Chicago are completely affordable in comparison.

49

I have a relative who is up for partnership in a NYC Biglaw. He’s made clear that he will not consider to be a counsel.
It’s really a win-win situation from my perspective.
If he makes it, good for him. It he doesn’t, he will move out of NYC and get a job with a life outside of work.

50

Eh. You don’t have to kill yourself.

In any case, if you’re bright, you may want to look in to jumping over to consulting. May not be easy though I know one lawyer who did it. Hours are still long, but generally not BigLaw-long, and consultants seem to enjoy their work and life better (though at MBB, with up-or-out, you have to be pretty bright to last). Then again, even after you leave, there are better exit opportunities for consultants. May require a M7 MBA.

51

I have worked them all, BigLaw, government, and in-house with startups and Fortune 500 companies, and I have to say in-house is ideal, esp in a smaller city. Pay is really not that much worse than law firm pay because companies tend to pay bonuses and have stock options, and there’s certainly more job security. And you have a life outside of work. Because I still keep “law firm” hours at my office, I’m in the office until 6 (!), and most of the other employees all left at 5 o’clock. It’s considered rude at my company to not apologize for scheduling a conference call after 4 pm. As you probably can tell, I don’t work in NYC or London, but the work is still interesting. I’m often negotiating transactions with outside law firm lawyers, and you can always sense a certain amount of disdain exhibited toward the in-house lawyer. But believe me, when we have an opening in our legal department, we get tons of these same outside lawyers clamoring for the position and sending in their resumes, even if if its a position that requires very little experience.

52

Re NYC: I think NYC is a terrible place to live long term unless you have 10 to 20 million liquid, so I agree. That said, we are not planning on staying for the long term. We both grew up in the suburbs and IMO, the suburbs are much, much nicer.

53

BigLawLawyer, keep in mind some good advice that I got years ago:

If you can’t change your circumstances, change your attitude.

54

^ Not sure how to do that when the day to day of this job sucks and is all consuming. I mean if it’s a 9 to 5 job, it’s easier to “change your attitude.” When you literally spend 95% of your waking moments working in biglaw, how can you change your attitude?

I think most people in the US and first world countries can change their circumstances. Apply for jobs, change professions, etc. There’s really a lot most people in the US can do. I have no kids, no mortgage, am under 30, our parents are wealth off and willing to help us out financially - so why keep doing something that is terrible? I feel like people stay in biglaw for 6+ years because they have no other options a lot of the time (have a family, mortgage) or get stuck in a rut and can’t see out of the tunnel, thinking it’s the only way to make it “big” in life. Rambling again, but life really is too short doing something that pretty much nobody (even the partners) enjoys.

55

I know someone who is a business analyst in the IT world now with a legal background and works on a lot of compliance projects. Gonna say… she is not making very much money (adequate, but not six figures), and doesn’t seem especially happy.

There really ARE some attorneys who like their work. My ex, the attorney who worked for a state revenue department, mostly liked his work. As I said before, kinda crappy pay, though. What if you decided to stick with law for now, but do something less profitable? Work for DAs office, go to the non-profit sector, work in something like international human rights law. You don’t seem keen on any of the other suggestions out here (smaller firms, in-house counsel, etc.). Maybe you need to try to do some good in the world with your skills and forget about big law and the big money that goes with it.

56

BigLaw Lawyer, yes, you can change your circumstances in the near and longer terms, but in the short term, change your attitude. I was given the advice if “if you can’t change your circumstances, change your attitude” when I was a midlevel associate in a large law firm in NYC, like you.

There are two huge benefits in your current job: high pay and adding a prestigious background that will open doors in the future. You can decide to be happy due to those two things, or anything else in your current situation that is good, even if there are many more negatives.

After this job, you’ll have other jobs, but no job and no situation is perfect. So you have a choice: you can decide that you’ll be content, or you can decide that you’ll be miserable, regardless of the situation. You’ve clearly picked the second in this situation, but learning to pick the first and not the second, regardless of the actual situation, will serve you well.

57

OP, if you are at the point where you can’t tolerate it any longer and don’t really give a $hit about your job, just try to take it easy as much as you can while you look for a new job / apply to grad school / think about what you wanna do, etc.

Don’t get too caught up in turning in the best work you can with all the details polished. try to slack a bit, try to push back couple projects with b.s. family excuses, take fake sick days, try to bounce after 6pm sharp with the note that you’ll get stuff done at home later if $hit comes up, don’t answer random emails from clients past 7-8pm, etc.

Like it or not, over 90% of biglaw attorneys will get fired past 5-6 years into their jobs. Even the very star associates who work to their bones will likely get axed come partnership review time. Biglaw is a temporary gig for the most, and you treat it as such.

There are intellectually challenging jobs out there with strong pay, but those are hard to get, and many times, those gigs require STEM degrees with substantive related experience. My cousin majored in CS & Stats in college and now works as a ‘data scientist’ at a F500. He does cool $hit like analyzing data and coming up with a corporate strategy, based on the statistical models he builds using a combination of coding, Excel modeling, and some stats software package. I saw some samples of his work, and it looked interesting as hell. Damn did I wish that I could have his job, even if it pays half of what Biglaw pays. Too bad I was a brainless Econ major and did law school.

that being said, for now just plan on getting the hell out of biglaw gradually while collecting the paycheck. I mentioned that you should look into compliance roles at corporations. You say it’s boring, and you’re right. But, don’t forget that once you get ‘in’ at a company and network with the people, there’s always a chance that you can switch into a different, more interesting role down the road. Very few interesting jobs just fall into your lap. you just gotta go out there, hustle, work hard, see how things go and hope for the best.

58

Having grown up in NYC among a family of lawyers and judges, and after decades of trying to figure out what I wanted to do when I grew up (which – for better or worse – did not include law school, although I came close a few times), I have a few comments.

  1. The legal profession - perhaps more than any other - is rife with myriad possibilities. If you don't like Big Law, don't do Big Law. As others have suggested, you can do public service (e.g., DA's office, NYC Law Dept., Legal Aid), family law, immigration law, work for a not-for-profit agency, be a human rights advocate, etc., etc. My father was a criminal defense attorney that became a judge; my brother worked at Big Law for a few years, but hated it. He ultimately left Big Law and its Big Paycheck and decided to work for the NYC Law Dept. where he spent over 30 years and earned a decent living (certainly much, much less than he would have earned had he remained working for Big Law but with twice the job satisfaction and with great benefits including lots of vacation time, sick leave, and a nice pension). Lawyers do work hard, some work harder than others...in the end, you need to make life choices that work for you in terms of how much you want to work and what kind of lifestyle best suits you. I know some happy lawyers and I know some unhappy lawyers, just as I know some happy non-lawyers and some unhappy non-lawyers.
  2. You don't need to be a multi-millionaire to live in NYC (it certainly doesn't hurt, but it is not a requirement). You just, as others have suggested, need to adjust your attitude and determine what kind of lifestyle best suits you and how you can best afford it. I come from a long line of civil servants and I, too, put in my years working for the city (as a computer programmer). Again, you've got to make your own choices with respect to what kind of lifestyle you want to live and what's important to you and then choose your employment accordingly. I probably could have earned much, much more in software development had I worked for a bank or insurance company or other for-profit entity. Instead, I chose to work for a not-for-profit educational software developer and then worked for city government. I earned a decent living and was comfortable, but did not live (nor would I have wanted to live) in a Park Avenue penthouse. In the wake of a divorce and in need of a major life change, I left NYC and software development behind to move out to CA and start grad school at the age of 35. I now am blissfully unemployed (actually, a stay-at-home mom doing volunteer work and spending far too much time on CC), am married to a great guy, and live in southern CA. My daughter (now a high school sophomore) talks about going to law school...I'd be delighted if she did, and would give her the same advice I just gave you.

Life (especially for those that can are unencumbered and able to afford it, as it sounds like you are) is all about choices. Make them wisely.

59

I considered law school before going the MPP route. I was never aiming for BigLaw just a steady gig with a firm in a sweet town like Bloomington. Didn’t go that route - threads like this always make me wonder why folks would put so much pressure on themselves.

60

What’s MPP?