<p>
[quote]
Speaking only as someone who just spent a LONG time reading this entire thread because I am very concerned about my son's welfare as a freshman next year--a son who has chosen his friends and social occasions in high school to avoid drunken slobs at his school
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Speaking as someone who was also very concerned about college drinking (and remains so) when her daughter entered college 2 years ago, and who read her the riot act about true binge drinking at that time: I know for a fact that she has played beer pong at least twice (I don't approve). I suspect that she has gone to some of the big parties on her campus and had 4 cups of beer over the course of an evening. She's a varsity athlete on a top team, a dean's list student with a double major, has been hired to assist professors in grading papers and problem sets during the school year and will be staying at school over the summer to do lab research with some profs. When she's not working out, or ID/Mini/Wechsler bingeing, she's doing problems sets, which get harder and harder, and longer and longer, and she continues to slay them. She has a terrific relationship with a young man who is also a varsity athlete, and will also be staying at school over the summer because of his particular talent in his academic field. He's probably an ID/Mini/Wechsler binge drinker, too, because he has undoubtedly had 5 beers at some point over the course of an evening during a two-week period when the "Wechsler survey" was passed out along with its cash inducements to participate. I hope all the other "ID/Mini/Wechsler binge drinkers" out there are doing as well....and I suspect they are.</p>
<p>I'd like a world where people don't drive 60 in the fast lane, the library is not overrun with stinky homeless men looking at porn, and the streets are free of panhandlers and dog poop. That's not going to happen and college is a good place to learn to deal with the everyday problems of living in the real world.</p>
<p>Alas, not all ID/Mini/Wechsler binge drinkers are doing as well. Ask the Carnegie Mellon professor who sent his son off to Kenyon last fall.</p>
<p>Or ask the non-drinkers in freshmen dorms at colleges where the drinking is "crazy" and 1 out of 5 students puke in public each year how they are doing.</p>
<p>We can all pat ourselves on the back because our kids are not problem drinkers. But, that doesn't change an ugly situation.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Or ask the non-drinkers in freshmen dorms at colleges where the drinking is "crazy" and 1 out of 5 students puke in public each year how they are doing.
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You're mixing anecdotes here, aren't you? Beyond that, the Kenyon student didn't die from going to a party and having five beers over the course of an evening. Anyone involved in alchohol hazing should be prosecuted, IMO. But creating a silly definition of "binge drinking" that doesn't pass the common sense test doesn't help the cause that we all support.</p>
<p>Can we let go of the single problem of defining that phrase and agree that there is a problem so the discussion can proceed? </p>
<p>And please, if you're going to quote me, which I would prefer you not do, as anyone who likes can read what I wrote for herself or himself, quote entire sentences. I don't see the point of the quote above, anyway. Is there some reason you think I shouldn't speak from my own perspective?</p>
<p>ctymomteacher:
quoting and commenting: that's what happens here. If you think I've taken you out of context--make your point, and if you're correct, I'll agree and apologize. Not everyone has the time to scroll back through multiple posts to see what your point was way back when. Of course you should speak from your own perspective...I was doing the same.</p>
<p>The "single problem of defining that phrase," if I may quote you, is central. Sorry. Words mean things, and if we don't all agree upon what they mean, we can't have a serious conversation.</p>
<p>The point of the sentence you partially quoted was to ask that we all skip the bickering and stick to the point--the topic. Your partial quote completely ducks the intent. And since, yes, words have meaning, including MY words, I'd like them to be allowed to mean what I intend.</p>
<p>This is a potentially enormously useful topic if it is allowed to be so. I think the topic was adequately defined after eleven pages. Further quibbling serves no one.</p>
<p>Again, someone with as many posts as you should realize how it works...but I don't mean to bicker, or even quibble. I chose the opening sentence of your preachy but overly-long admonishment as an introduction because it spoke to me, and was a launching point for my own perspective. I've been there (with a daughter in college) for two years now. If you have any questions about the topic....ask.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Each year about 50 students from universities and colleges across the nation die from alcohol poisoningalmost one every weekend! These tragic deaths should serve as a wake up call to everyone who has ever participated in a drinking game, for there is no such thing as a safe drinking game (an oxymoron of serious proportions)!
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-- University of New Mexico health center website</p>
<p>Driver -- Your daughter sounds like a fine young woman, who always drinks beer rather than hard liquor, who spreads her five or so drinks over an entire evening rather than over an hour, and who only engages in beer pong a few times a year. Great. </p>
<p>Now, can we get beyond the argument over what defines binge drinking? Let's talk, instead, about alcohol poisoning. Who has some statistics to contribute on that? The kids who get taken to the ER and live are not all victims of fraternity hazing, or kids who will go on to a lifetime of alcoholism. They are participating in college rituals that seem to be getting more widespread. How about hearing from some college students on this -- rather than just parents and high school kids?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Now, can we get beyond the argument over what defines binge drinking? Let's talk, instead, about alcohol poisoning.
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No. You can't separate them. Real binge drinking leads to poisoning. The Wechsler definition muddies the waters, and even confuses students in to thinking that real binge drinking is the norm.</p>
<p>So, the basic problem is that students read the Wechsler report and get confused into thinking that "real binge drinking is the norm"? Meaning they assume they are or aren't "real" binge drinkers? Drink more or less?
I think students get most of their information from looking around them.
[quote]
Death: 1,400 college students between the ages of 18 and 24 die each year from alcohol-related unintentional injuries, including motor vehicle crashes (Hingson et al., 2002).
Injury: 500,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are unintentionally injured under the influence of alcohol (Hingson et al., 2002).
Assault: More than 600,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are assaulted by another student who has been drinking (Hingson et al., 2002).
Sexual Abuse: More than 70,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are victims of alcohol-related sexual assault or date rape (Hingson et al., 2002).
Unsafe Sex: 400,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 had unprotected sex and more than 100,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 report having been too intoxicated to know if they consented to having sex (Hingson et al., 2002).
Academic Problems: About 25 percent of college students report academic consequences of their drinking including missing class, falling behind, doing poorly on exams or papers, and receiving lower grades overall (Engs et al., 1996; Presley et al., 1996a, 1996b; Wechsler et al., 2002).</p>
<ul>
<li> Health Problems/Suicide Attempts: More than 150,000 students develop an alcohol-related health problem (Hingson et al., 2002) and between 1.2 and 1.5 percent of students indicate that they tried to commit suicide within the past year due to drinking or drug use (Presley et al., 1998).</li>
<li> Drunk Driving: 2.1 million students between the ages of 18 and 24 drove under the influence of alcohol last year (Hingson et al., 2002).</li>
<li> Vandalism: About 11 percent of college student drinkers report that they have damaged property while under the influence of alcohol (Wechsler et al., 2002).</li>
<li> Property Damage: More than 25 percent of administrators from schools with relatively low drinking levels and over 50 percent from schools with high drinking levels say their campuses have a "moderate" or "major" problem with alcohol-related property damage (Wechsler et al., 1995).</li>
<li> Police Involvement: About 5 percent of 4-year college students are involved with the police or campus security as a result of their drinking (Wechsler et al., 2002) and an estimated 110,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are arrested for an alcohol-related violation such as public drunkenness or driving under the influence (Hingson et al., 2002).
<p>No, sac,
Of course the students don't read Wechsler. But their credulous parents do, after seeing him on the morning talk shows, hearing about him on CC, etc., where the idea that majorities or near-majorities of college students are " binge drinkers" is transformed into urban legend. Sending the message that real binge drinkers are rare and pathetic would be more helpful than constantly telling our kids that most or nearly most of their college classmates will be bingeing, puking drunks. It would also be more accurate.</p>
<p>I too would like to move the focus to alcohol poisoning. Statistics are interesting, but I'd rather focus on info that relates alcohol poisoning to body weight and number of drinks consumed in specific time periods. </p>
<p>After the freshman student died at U of Colorado this fall, I did see some charts and numbers intended for students, so they would know how much was too much. If someone has ready access to that kind of info, I'd love to see it. Might make for some interesting dinner table conversation....</p>
<p>Sac, I copied your quote box into a word file for future reference. But where are you quoting from? Thanks.</p>
<p>It really is an individual determination, isn't it? And circumstantial, depending on how much you have eaten, the proof of the your drink. Sometimes kids who are used to watered down drinks they sneaked in highschool when one bottle was used to spike many cups, think they have a larger capacity than they do when they drink some real, undiluted stuff. This whole thing about chugging drinks is just not a safe activity, but trying to convice kids of this has not worked. </p>
<p>It seems to me that the loud lout who has a high profile and chugs down those drinks for attention is not the one who ends up in as much touble, as he is on everyone's radar screen and can be taken for help if necessary. It is often the quiet student who just imbibes too much in a short period of time, but no one is noticing, and he slips out to go home..... I know of one young man whose body was found in a little used stairway outside of a university building. No one notice he was missing for a while and because it was not a well used path, it too time before his body was discovered. He must have not seen the stairs going by and slipped down them. Very high alcohol content in the body.</p>
<p>Five beers over four hours for a 150 pound male would result in a BAC of .08, which would result in DUI charge in all 50 states, I believe.</p>
<p>It won't let me enter more than 20 shots of vodka, so I can't do the birthday celebration. 20 shots over 2 hours is a BAC of .59, which would be almost certainly fatal if you could keep it down long enough for it to be absorbed. Basically, the only thing that would save someone trying the birthday celebration would be vomiting and passing out first.</p>
<p>16 shots over the course of 4 hours would produce a BAC of .44. I believe Xiggi's friend who died in Colorado was given a fifth of whisky to drink (16 shots) by his fraternity "brothers". His post-mortem BAC was in the .32 range.</p>
<p>as a college-bound high school senior, i found this thread of great interest. no, not because i'm a proponent of the temperance movement interesteddad and his ilk seem to be advocating--but to see if parents really are as clueless as i think they are (yeah, they are).
kids drink. high school kids drink, college-aged kids drink. pretty much everyone i know is a binge-drinker by the "five drinks a night/four if you're a girl" standard. and the last time i checked, kids who drank five drinks a night or--gasp--played beer pong are not puking in public or dying of alcohol poisoning. (in fact, nobody i know is playing beer pong to get drunk. if you play with two players on a team, ten cups of beer filled with four ounces of beer each per side--how i have always seen it played--you are drinking, at the very most, twenty ounces of beer per game. less than two beers. and games can last a while.) drinking is a part of the culture. i suspect it might have even been part of the culture when some of you "paleoalums" (great word) were in college. however, when colleges (as i am not yet in college please take my opinions here with a grain of salt) treat alcohol as a discipline issue rather than a health issue, then you force the drinking underground. that's when you get kids pregaming in dorm rooms--underage kids that won't be served at campus events--getting as drunk as quickly as possible (which can result in much higher BAC as the liver is unable to remove alcohol from the body as fast as it is being consumed). let's be realistic here: underage drinking happens, and will continue to happen, at colleges. i really don't think you can change that. what you can change is how people drink. require a freshman seminar on alcohol: how to avoid alcohol poisoning, how to help someone you think might have it. it's amazing how much misinformation is out there at the high school level which almost certainly carries into college (ie, giving someone water who's had to much to drink--no! that will allow their body to absorb the alcohol that hasn't yet hit the bloodstream more quickly). i really think that the argument for sex education also carries into alcohol. studies have proven that sex ed hasn't promoted promiscuity; why should alcohol education promote dangerous levels of drinking?</p>
<p>So, Sbomb, help us "clueless" adults understand.</p>
<p>Since everyone you know is a "binge drinker" and beer pong player in high school, drinking is obviously a big part of your life. </p>
<p>How much was the drinking scene at Williams a factor in your college choice? Would you have considered the school if it had a reputation for having a below-average amount of drinking?</p>
<p>interesteddad--
you'll note from my post above that i never once mentioned that i myself partake in drinking (i don't). i also never mentioned that i was attending williams (i'm not). those are both things that you insinuated about me. god help us if your idea for adcoms to weed out potential binge drinkers during the application process takes hold, because i think you've proven by immediately labeling me a drinker simply because i've been exposed to alcohol in high school that it's not so easy to tell.</p>
<p>as for drinking being a big part of my life--you're right. my family was destroyed by alcoholism. do i equate underage (high school/college) partying with alcohol with alcoholism? no. do i think my friends are alcoholics? no. do i think that they are normal and average kids who like to party and have a good time? yes. i think you need to crawl out from the rock you live under and realize that socializing at the high school/college level involves alcohol, and that this isn't necessarily wrong or unhealthy. i'd be surprised, frankly, if your own college aged daughter never drank alcohol in high school or college.</p>
<p>and to answer your question--no, i didn't really pay attention to college's "reputation" for "the drinking scene" when considering them. please give me a little more credit.</p>