<p>I-dad,</p>
<p>That is an interesting and worthwhile perspective. Food for thought. gulp.</p>
<p>Hhmmm, in my state it would be 25% less access for blacks in poverty, not necessarily less need.
I thought it might be something peculiar to the students themselves as Dogs is alluding to - social segregation or the need to be better than the dominant culture, that's why I wonder about the rates at HBCUs. And yes, if I remember right from my misspent youth, hard liquor can do you in pretty well, and it tastes better.</p>
<p>I've always been curious about this definition of "binge" drinking...4-5 drinks "in a row" or "at one sitting" during the "last two weeks." I don't see any context at all specified in Wechsler. Are they talking about students who attend two parties per month, at which time they consume 4-5 cups or bottles of beer over, say, a 5-6 hour period? We could be talking frisbee tournament parties, for example (non-jocks!). Or students who, twice a month, sit down at a coffee table and pound down 4-5 shots of vodka in an hour? Is there any context to these self-reported studies? It doesn't seem so to me. I would also add that anyone who goes out to dinner with their spouse twice a month, has a cocktail at the bar, and then shares a bottle of wine over a lovely meal is a "binge" drinker, according to this definition.</p>
<p>Does anyone know about the binge drinking stats at Haverford and Brown?</p>
<p>Is there a source that provides binge drinking rates by institution?</p>
<p>Driver --</p>
<p>You need to remember that, in the Wechsler survey, a majority percentage of those who drink at all cite as their reason for drinking as "intended to get drunk". The survey question includes ALL the moderate drinkers. If you take the moderate drinkers (who are already a relatively small minority at Williams - if 50% are binge drinkers, and 25% are abstainers, only 25% at most can be "moderate drinkers") out of the mix, you are pretty close to a blanket statement that binge drinkers "intend to get drunk". (and remember: the 5 drinks was the minimum.) You can figure out the rest from there.</p>
<p>No, Snorky - the data agreement explicitly states that release of the data is the solely of the individual college, that no college newspaper can show comparative data, and no tool can be prepared comparing the data between colleges. Some, like Carleton, have officially released there data, and others have not.</p>
<p>I believe that the 5 drink definition is an industry standard for social science research. Wechsler borrowed it from the government research definitions (Health and Human Services?)</p>
<p>I believe the thinkng behind the definition is to establish a difference between moderate social drinking (a cocktail or two, a bottle of wine with dinner, a couple beers watching Monday Night Football) and drinking with the intent to get drunk.</p>
<p>The 5 drink threshold works for me. I cannot remember the last time I "binged" by that standard. At least two decades ago.</p>
<p>Here is the exact wording of Wechsler's questions:</p>
<p>1) Think back over the LAST TWO WEEKS. How many times have you had FIVE OR MORE DRINKS in a row?</p>
<p>2) During the LAST TWO WEEKS, how many times have your had FOUR DRINKS in a row (but no more than that)?</p>
<p>It really doesn't matter what definition you use as long as it is consistent. The goal of the research is establish comparisons across schools, racial categories, gender, or anywhich way. You could make the threshold higher (say drinking a fifth of Jack Daniels in one sitting). The absolute percentages would drop (well, maybe not at some schools), but the relative comparisons would still hold true. You would still see the same correllations.</p>
<p>Mini--
The range for "drinking to get drunk" in Wechsler was below a majority....but still close. I have no doubt that most college kids--who are drinking Coors Lite, Keystone Lite, and all the other budget 30-pack specials-- are not doing it just to satisfy their gourmet tastes. I also doubt that the college pot smokers are doing it because they savor the fine bouquet. My point remains the same. I see no context at all in the Wechsler survey, so I don't know what to make of it.</p>
<p>ID--If you have taken the InterestedWife out, shared a bottle of wine, and had either a before or after dinner drink, you're a pair of binge drinkers, according to the survey...assuming Wechsler happened to send you a survey---and you happened to answer it--within two weeks of the decadent event.</p>
<p>"The range for "drinking to get drunk" in Wechsler was below a majority....but still close."</p>
<p>I used Carleton's numbers (52%). Since the binge drinking numbers are higher at Williams, one would have to stretch the imagination to determine that the percentage "intending to get drunk" is lower. (It wouldn't make any sense that there being more binge drinkers and fewer moderate drinkers would result in fewer "intending to get drunk.") Put together a frosh quad where 70% of the white students binge drink and intend to get drunk on a regular basis and I think we'd all agree there is a problem....</p>
<p>I hear that the games college kids play that revolve around drinking are significantly more agressive these days, for lack of a better way to say it. For example, shots of beer used to just be shots of beer. Today, I think they call it the Golden Hour, or something like that.....1 shot every minute for an hour......The Century Club is a shot of beer a minute for 100 minutes. Kids strive to become a member of The Century Club. One of the worst is at midnight on your 21st birthday, you do a shot of booze a minute for 21 minutes......the birthday kid might even have "spotters", you know, folks who promise to take care of the birthday kid cause it is a given they will be wasted before they realize it.....but, often the spotters are out of control too.....mix in any drug, and what is lethal on its own is now toxic too. So, 5 drinks in 1 sitting is nothing and might explain why the numbers saying "sure, I binge drink" seem so high....the truth is that kids encouraged to admire extreme sports are the same ones that will be attracted to extreme drinking. </p>
<p>My own worst drinking experience involved shots of tequila.....but, the night was a lot longer and the quantities were a lot less. I do have a strong belief that the legal drinking age is contributing to this situation. Along with the fact that so many stores sell alcohol, all the supermarkets, the drugstores, etc so it is very easily had. I believe by keeping kids out of bars, they end up buying bottles of booze, much larger portions if you will and they drink it all. I think my disposable income in '71-75 was in proportion to what today's kid has....and rarely did we drink anything other than beer. Shots were "special" occasions, when it was a quarter a shot.....like in Ft. Lauderdale on XMAS vacation. Not letting kids into bars means they are planning parties ahead of time and bringing along a lot more to consume than we ever did. A lot of the fun was to bar hop to see different folks in different bars. I think we drank less cause we were on the move more. The bars were very crowded and one would have had to work really hard to buy the quantity of drinks these kids are pouring themselves from their own bottles. Bartenders also have measures on their bottles....kids don't. </p>
<p>This extreme drinking is not only in colleges either. Recently, a HS in Portland had a dance. Over 300 kids showed.....HALF of them were drunk. Over 11 ended up needing treatment, one gal was hospitalized. Apparently, the staff was overwhelmed with the sick kids and unable to serve in their chaperone role. They let kids into the locker rooms for the bathroom facilities and the locker rooms had outside entrances so kids were coming and going. Anyway, my point is that a lot of seriously inebriated kids showed up at a HS dance. The cops up here are going after the source of the liquor. But, somehow, we need to unglamorize the "consuming to excess" that is all the rage. </p>
<p>One of my pearls of wisdom to my own son and to my summer sitters has been "consume a full glass of water for each drink or shot you have" in an effort to impress upon these kids that they need to slow down the consumption.....fill up on harmless stuff.....make it a personal commitment each time you go out....view it as a way to honor yourself. When you don't want any more water, then you are done drinking. A few of the kids have told me that it was actually very helpful on more than one occasion. </p>
<p>I loved Williams when we visited.....I think they have really tried hard to provide their students with a lot of options for entertainment. They are more isolated than Amherst. The isolation along with the sports emphasis is a perfect petrie dish for excess. The Bulldog Days thread on the Yale forum talks about the cops busting a party for the pre-frosh. I just don't think our society can afford the enforcement that is needed, Bulldog Days might be easier to anticipate needing extra enforcement, but no one saw it coming at our local HS dance.....and who is going to "volunteer" to supervise in today's litigious society? </p>
<p>Anyway, this is a very valid problem....and will take some real strong leadership to get kids back on the wagon!! IMHO.....</p>
<p>I don't know about that. A bottle of wine is 25 ounces. So that is six four ounce servings or three drinks each. Add a cocktail and that's four each. </p>
<p>Personally, I wouldn't do that in restaurant because I won't drive after more than two drinks. Four drinks is getting close to the legal BAC limits in most states.</p>
<p>Even when I'm not driving, I stop at about three drinks. I just don't like drinking to get drunk.</p>
<p>
[quote]
One of the worst is at midnight on your 21st birthday, you do a shot of booze a minute for 21 minutes......
[/quote]
</p>
<p>21 shots of whiskey in an hour for a 175 pound male results in a BAC of .40.</p>
<p>That blood alcohol level is fatal about half the time. Your odds would be better playing Russian Roulette with a loaded gun to celebrate the birthday. At least your odds of killing yourself would only be 1 in 6.</p>
<p>This why the drinking issue is important.</p>
<p>I don't get the heavy drinking either.. there's nothing more unglamourous than someone hurling in the bushes (or worse, on the rug.) I'm amazed that these kids have the stamina to drink and participate in schoolwork, etc.</p>
<p>Exactly interesteddad.....these kids are pursuing a game that is potentially deadly...and they laugh when they talk about it.... a kid from Maine died at a RI school earlier this year on their 21st birthday because of this new ritual. I think your analogy is a great one and I will use it.... somehow we have to make an impression when they are not getting ready to go out....when they are not recovering from a night out of misbehaving.... a rational conversation has to be had during a neutral timeslot to impress upon these kids that they are playing with fire. I am not saying every kid is doing it....but a lot of kids are doing this..... and it is viewed as normal.</p>
<p>I will stipulate again, that most college students probably have getting drunk in mind when they're drinking. Haven't they always? I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm just asking what basis is there in this Wechsler study for making any comparison among colleges----or in particular, identifying "binge" drinkers? Let alone what support there is for your never-ending Williams-as-SkidRow claim?</p>
<p>Asked, and answered, in post #3:</p>
<p>"This data is from Williams' own survey, so it may or may not comparable. Compared with schools in Wechsler's work, it would seem to be well above the norm, which is not totally surprising, as Williams has all the documented characteristics of a school prone to heavy drinking, except a Greek presence."</p>
<p>I reported the data because Momrath specifically asked me to (see title). You can interpret it as you will.</p>
<p>You have cited yourself...duly noted.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I will stipulate again, that most college students probably have getting drunk in mind when they're drinking. Haven't they always?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No. I don't think that's always been the case. A typical "drinking" night when I was in college was for a bunch of guys to stroll down to the Log on Spring Street, get a couple pitchers of beer, and sit around yukkin' it up. Maybe three glasses of beer each over the course of a couple hours. A little buzz? Yes. But, neither the intent nor the end-result was getting [poop]-faced drunk.</p>
<p>Many kids today set out with the goal of drinking 'til they puke. </p>
<p>I never had a alcohol blackout in college where I couldn't remember where I had been or what I had done. According to Wechsler, 27% of the occasional binge drinkers and 54% of the frequent binge drinkers have experienced such a blackout. That's the national average. At a school with above average binge drinking rates, you would expect those percentages to be even higher.</p>
<p>But ID,
Again you make my point. What, according to these surveys, defines "drinking to get drunk?" I suspect that if the question were asked differently, say: "Do you drink to catch a little buzz and yuk it up?" The answer would be close to 100% YES. If the question asked: "Do you intend to black out, puke, and smear feces?" The answer would be nearly 100% NO. But either one defines drinking to feel the effects of alchohol. So, once again, I think the data that you and Mini use in your never-ending quest is faulty, and you need to find a better source. That's all, I'm really not in favor of students drinking a lot. I just hate questionable data used to gin up false impressions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many kids today set out with the goal of drinking 'til they puke.
[/quote]
I had ask for your source on this one. Come on, stop pulling "facts" out of your nether regions.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but a lot of kids are doing this..... and it is viewed as normal.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What's even more disturbing is that kids who do NOT do this are viewed as being the "weirdos". To me, that's the real downside of a heavy campus drinking culture. </p>
<p>Personally, I don't really care if a frat boy wants to drink himself into a coma. But, I do care that my kid be in an environment where she can choose to drink or not without being ostricized or viewed as an outcast. And, that should she choose to drink (as I would expect most college kids to do), it be in an environment where people drink kinda like normal people.</p>