<p>
[quote]
What's even more disturbing is that kids who do NOT do this are viewed as being the "weirdos".
[/quote]
Again, where does this factoid come from?</p>
<p>Driver:</p>
<p>Try the "College Life" section of this forum. Here's a little sample:</p>
<p>ID:
Thanks for the anonymous random comments of who knows who. I would parse it and perhaps even vet it before using it as a source for any important work, though. I mean seriously--did you base those last two sweeping generalizations of yours on that silly thread?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Thanks for the anonymous random comments of who knows who.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're welcome!</p>
<p>Here's a random comment from a non-anonymous dean of a top-ranked liberal arts college, appearing in the school's newspaper a few years back (before the school saw a significant upturn in the number of alcohol related hospitalizations):</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dean of the College Peter Murphy said he is concerned about the increase in serious alcohol related visits to the Health Center.</p>
<p>We have seen a rash of really dangerous drinking -- near death experiences -- in recent weeks, he said. </p>
<p>He also noted that while some of the intoxicated students have been first-years, many others have been upperclass student attending private 21st birthday parties.</p>
<p>Some students, he said, have come close to killing themselves.</p>
<p>I personally know of two near-death experiences in the last three weeks, he said. They happened, quite simply, because people drank too much, too fast. Twenty-first birthday parties, which as I understand have developed a sort of ritual around them, are turning out to be a hazardous business. Actually, in talking with students about this issue, I have been surprised at the relatively low level of understanding of the actual hazards of heavy drinking. Or, perhaps, people know but dont really care.</p>
<p>This kind of compulsive, purposefully self-destructive drinking may be more common now, he added. That is really scary, and I think it should be really scary to everyone, students and non-students alike.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The issue is pretty simple: if you want to find data that support the notion that college drinking and binging are problems that are growing at alarmingly fast rates, you'll find them. If you want to muddy the waters by endlessly debating over the EXACT definition of five drinks per event, you'll find plenty of company. Even Bill Clinton could agree with the basic proposition, and he is still looking for the axact and complete definition of "IS". If past discussions on CC are an indication, opinions are well-entrenched. </p>
<p>I approach this is in a very simple and direct way: Why are we expecting institutions of higher learning and drinking to be good bedfellows. In most places, there are stringent laws that restrict the distance to sell prohibited goods like pornography from churches and schools. In the future, there WILL BE laws that make every school in the United States safer. The only question is how fast do we muster the courage to face the fallacies of our current policies. This is time to throw out the baby WITH the bathwater. For starters, get rid of all the fraternities by building a zero tolerance circle of ten miles just for them. So what if we lose a few housing avenues, a bit of social experience, or a bit of "community service" in the immediate vicinity of campus. A few years after their eradication, nobody would miss the infestation except for some die- and blow-hards who still live in a past century. Innocent victims? Hardly! Colleges have to rediscover their true vocation, and it takes more than a few silly greek letters to spell it out. Pro-frats, save your breath filled with cries of misunderstanding and discrimination. You did this to yourself by refusing to considering zero tolerance as your chance! I hope to see the last frat house cease complete operation during my lifetime. </p>
<p>Colleges are places where people go to learn and become more educated. They are not places to test your physical limits and ... die.</p>
<p>ID:
That was lame. Yes, Morty is a much better president than Murphy was many years ago, during the period when Williams actually seemed to be in trouble--for far more reasons than drinking. You need to get over whatever your personal problem is with the college. I know you didn't mesh, you should have gone to Swarthmore like your daughter...but your constant bashing is tedious, to be polite. Just because Williams wasn't for you in your day doesn't mean you have to be a constant troll.</p>
<p>A question arose earlier in the thread about differences in drinking behavior between "black" and "white" people. I recall a National Public Radio report some years ago about campus drinking that had interviews with students, I think at U Mass, who contrasted "black parties" and "white parties." People who attended black parties expected to DANCE at the parties, while people who attended white parties expected to drink to drunkeness. </p>
<p>For what it's worth, at my huge commuter state university in the upper Midwest in the 1970s, I was a happy nondrinker. (I was not quite a literal teetotaler, but pretty close, even back in those days when the legal drinking age was eighteen.) I have never, ever been drunk, and have never binged by the definitions used in this thread. I have a fairly large social circle of college-educated adults (I have read that my congressional district has one of the highest percentages of college graduates of any in the country) and many of us have the same drinking habits, and always did: a once-in-a-while drink with friends, and no drinking to drunkeness. </p>
<p>I agree with Xiggi that it is assinine to expect the college experience to include getting drunk as if that is a necessary element of going to college. I wish all the alumni of various colleges here (mine too) well in encouraging the current college administrations to look after the young people in their care better.</p>
<p>Williams was our daughter's first choice school for over a year. Then one of her good friends spent a weekend on the campus this past fall for one of those recruited student programs, and came back with stories about many drunken students throughout the dorm. Although there are many very appealing aspects to Willams, this "drinking culture thing" is one of the reasons why our daughter decided to turn down her admission offer to Williams, and will go to Scripps.</p>
<p>Based on my experience in student health, I would say drinking to get drunk means being very close to the point of passing out. Drinking to get a buzz and still be able to yuk-it-up with your buddies would not be considered drinking to get drunk. This may explain the racial differences. Our African-American work-study-students voice disapproval of the sloppy drunk while the white work-study-students are much more accepting of this behavior.</p>
<p>Binge drinking was the topic of our spring conference last year. I think most campuses view this as a major problem leading to other problems (falling out of 2nd story windows, unprotected sex, brawling, frostbite, alcoholic encephalitis .)</p>
<p>
[quote]
falling out of 2nd story windows
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Lest anyone think this is an unsubstantiated factoid, check out this 1998 story from the Swathmore newspaper:</p>
<p>"...a male first-year jumped out of his second floor Wharton West window at 12:30 a.m. According to a Resident Advisor present at the scene, prior to his escape, three R.A.s were talking to him in his hall when he decided to "go check his messages." The student pushed the screen out of his window and jumped. </p>
<p>"He was taken to Worth Health Center then to Chester Crozer Medical Center and was released after a few hours, suffering no serious injury., said Tedd Goundie, Associate Dean of the College for Student Life. </p>
<p>"Earlier that night he had attended the Mephistos party in Willets, when one of the R.A.s asked him to leave. The student also attended the party in Wharton courtyard, but was not given anything to drink."</p>
<p>I applaud Williams for publishing this survey, especially during family weekend when its bound to be a major topic of discussion. The administration obviously cares.</p>
<p>After two years at Williams my son who was a light drinker before he started college, is still a light drinker. His friends are either light drinkers or non-drinkers. They have not been coerced, ostracized, viewed as outcasts, bullied or in any way pressured to drink more. Nor has their college experience been negatively colored by a pervasive and boorish abuse of alcohol.</p>
<p>Ive been reading these boards for two years now, and I must say there is no other college in any classification that receives such consistent and relentless bashing. Its the athletes, its the rich kids, its the white kids, its the males, its the freshman entries, its the isolation, its the weather, its the pressure, its the president, its admissions, its the coaches, its the prep schools and on and on. (At least we now know its not those low band SAT African American athletes.) The detractors have so many axes to grind that the fact that Williams is a wonderful college full of HAPPY kids who get a fine education and go on to be productive members of society gets lost in the shuffle.</p>
<p>I am exhausted by the barrage of negativity characterizing Williams as a place where substance abuse dominates the social scene, especially in relation to other schools with similar profiles (but perhaps different substances or different issues). I KNOW this perception is not accurate, but I cannot give hard facts to disprove it. Statistics abound, but for sure, they are difficult to evaluate out of context or to compare to information about other colleges. Subjective evidence repeatedly comes from second or third hand accounts or from people with already negative agendas. </p>
<p>I dont have the stomach for the continued acrimony. I am therefore going to disengage. Those who want to believe that the Williams experience revolves around the glorification of excessive drinking, seem to want to believe it no matter what current students or their parents say about what life at Williams really like. If any parent or student would like more information, please pm me.</p>
<p>I must admit that I did not understand there was an underlying ax being ground with this thread.....against Williams....I am concerned about the excessive drinking by kids of all ages....at any college, and at any HS. I do not think it is "worse" at Williams and I meant what I said when I felt that Williams has risen to the challenge with all of their programs for kids. I think Williams' place as a top, the top, LAC is even more worthy by taking this on by going public with the survey during a family weekend. I agree with Momrath that they care enough to educate the parents, in addition to getting the attn of the kids. I guess I also believe that locations like Hannover and Williamstown are easy targets for those with an ax.....I would have sent my oldest to either without hesitation. I only hope my youngest will have a choice of either......</p>
<p>Finally, excessive drinking is almost the norm these days....hell, we recently attended a Bat Mitzvah in NY with a martini bar during the cocktail hour and open bar all nite.....there were a lot of folks getting 2 drinks each time they went to the bar. </p>
<p>There tend to be some blackholes in CC where one can easily fall into a volley between a couple of posters.... I hate to think the dialog on binge drinking become victim to an ax....all I know is that the thought of 100 shots of beer in 100 minutes is seen by kids as cool and by me as insane. How many brain cells does each shot kill? Maybe a commercial "this is your brain before a shot" with millions of dots for each cell, then a "this is your brain after 100 shots" with a picture of a brain with a lot of blank spots in between dots...... to somehow make an impression??</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It would be a significant disservice to this forum if you disengage, and would leave the bashers unabated. Don't let a couple of articulate downers with their own agenda discourage you. I find it amusing that, notwithstanding the constant barrage of criticism levied against Williams, there is no shortage of fine applicants.</p>
<p>I'd have been pleased to send my son there, and will be taking my daughter to see it. My officemate in graduate school went to Williams, had nothing but wonderful things to say about it, was a complete non-athlete, non-drinker, and had many great friends and experiences in Williamstown. He's now a tenured professor at a top LAC, and constantly reflects on his own undergraduate days, which I can assure you were more rewarding and, according to him, far more typical than what other posters suggest. (And no, he was not one of those privileged kids that are constantly derided.)</p>
<p>And don't believe that certain other schools are as perfect as painted. None ever is.</p>
<p>On the "axe to grind" issue, let it be duly noted that the "axe grinders" on this thread both contribute at least a meager sum to the alumni fund from time to time and encouraged our offspring to visit and apply. Of all the colleges and universities in the world, Williams would be on my top-ten list for undergrad study if I were choosing a college today. Mini posted this thread because Momrath had demanded that data over and over and over.</p>
<p>Yes, binge drinking is high at many, many schools. I can name at least a half-dozen more incredibly prestigious New England schools that have ghastly problems with drunkenness. Even the schools with low binge drinking rates have some ugly, ugly drunks and are one Saturday night away from a grieving campus.</p>
<p>It's completely backwards to take comfort from widespread nature of the problem. In fact, that is precisely why there is a widespread problem with campus drunks. We, as students, parents, and alumni enable the drunks when we say that binge drinking and fraternity social life are just "normal", no worse than anywhere else -- even in face of evidence that couldn't be any louder if it were written in large neon letters.</p>
<p>We -- all of us -- have to let the drunks know that it is simply not acceptable behavior. We can try to let them know with rules. But, ultimately, we have to let them know with the weight of our community outrage. Colleges need to put the stigma back into being a drunk. That can't happen unless the students make it clear that being a drunk is unacceptable. It's highly unlikely our kids will do that if the message they get from us is, "it's OK, everybody's doing it."</p>
<p>Trust me, if every parent of a prospective student contacted the admissions office and asked for the binge drinking rate at the college, this issue would become a serious priority at these schools overnight.</p>
<p>Well said, Interesteddad!</p>
<p>On the main subject of this thread, not directed at any college, I note that a study was recently published suggesting that most college students overestimate the size of a standard drink, in other words that most college students are drinking even more than we think they are. </p>
<p><a href="http://alcoholism.about.com/od/college/a/blva050414.htm%5B/url%5D">http://alcoholism.about.com/od/college/a/blva050414.htm</a> </p>
<p>I have never in my life drunk five "standard" drinks in one day, and drinking five college-student-size drinks in one evening is a LOT of drinking, if the referenced article is to be believed.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think Williams' place as a top, the top, LAC is even more worthy by taking this on by going public with the survey during a family weekend. I agree with Momrath that they care enough to educate the parents, in addition to getting the attn of the kids
[/quote]
Maineparent: this openness is really the crux of the matter (and I agree with virtually all you said in this and previous posts). Anyone who has spent much time on campus in the last 5 years has met the current President, Morton Schapiro, and his wife Mimi. They have also thus become immediately aware that they are, literally, evangelical on the subject of dangerous student drinking. Not because the problem is unique to Williams, but because it is a real potential danger, and they want, as ID has demanded, to hold their school to a higher standard.</p>
<p>This singular commitment on the administration's part has led to a uniquely candid and public "discussion" of campus drinking at Williams. Nothing is hidden. It is in the student paper; on the website; on the campus blog. It is mentioned at length in the President's welcoming address to parents of matriculating freshmen, for Pete's sake! Unfortunately this has led some "axe-grinders"--extraordinarily prolific but admittedly peripherally-involved alumni--to breathlessly post these items on CC on a near-monthly basis as evidence that their dear alma mater is an alcoholic death camp. The fact is, other schools have not addressed the issue so forcefully and publicly...it is not that Williams has a unique problem. Momrath has accurately described their litany of other complaints in her excellent post at 7:09am, so I will leave that aspect of their axe-grinding alone. I sympathize with Momrath's weariness in this regard. It has become tedious to address the same malarky over and over.</p>
<p>Coming late to this thread and perusing the postings I am struck by several things. First, drinking and drugging on campus has been a major problem for at least the past 30 years. Arguments can be made about whether the problem is more widespread or severe now than in the past, but there should be little debate that colleges have struggled to deal with these issues for years. Unfortunately the colleges and our society has failed to dissuade adolescents from seeking out ways to change their level of consciousness through all sorts of methods, many of them self-destructive and dangerous. Second, the majority of the binge drinkers in college today are the moderate drinkers in 10-15 years. How can we expect colleges to preach the dangers of binge drinking when so many of their student's parents not only survived their own drinking exploits but fondly recall those "good old days" at alumni gatherings and the like. Third, it seems that solutions are in short supply. Lowering the drinking age back to 18, removing frats to 10 miles or more from campus, establishing zero tolerance for public drunkeness and other strategies are difficult to evaluate because we have not had the will to institute such measures. There does seem to be one bright spot in this arena--the change in attitude and behavior to driving under the influence. While drunk driving continues to occur, college students that I deal with have had an increasingly healthy respect for the dangers of getting behind the wheel of a car under the inluence. Perhaps we should look at what we did to make this happen and see if we can apply it to self-destructive drinking in general.</p>
<p>
[quote]
How can we expect colleges to preach the dangers of binge drinking when so many of their student's parents not only survived their own drinking exploits but fondly recall those "good old days"
[/quote]
Good post, but I have to say that I don't recall those days fondly...I count my lucky stars. I was a naive young jockette who had never even known a pot smoker (ok, one) before arriving at BU in the mid 70s, where Hunter Thompson's "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" was literally considered an instruction manual. I have no idea how we all survived, in retrospect. Some called our weekend exploits playing "human chemistry set." It was a big joke, and incredibly widespread and dangerous.</p>
<p>Please substitute AXE for AX in my above post....lol.....can you find the parent who didn't go to Williams??</p>
<p>Also, when I said in post #34 that this excessive drinking was viewed by the kids as normal, I did not mean that it should be normal. </p>
<p>And I completely agree that kids seem to have bought into the premise of a designated driver....in fact, at our hs, they want to have the role of the designated driver incorporated into the chem free policy that the school has.....not sure exactly how as I do not currently have anyone in the hs, but kids seem to appreciate the job... </p>
<p>Another reason to make the drinking age 18 in my opinion is because soo many kids are on campus during those formative years... often without cars.... let them go into bars to drink....let the time lapse between ordering and receiving an order help them pace their consumption, along with bar limits, then they can walk or crawl home.... then being legit won't be such a novelty when they graduate or turn 21....and are back behind the wheel of the car. </p>
<p>And that is my final word.....painting the bathroom today.... don't want to get paint on the keyboard...or do I? would I then not be able to work on Monday??? yeah, that's the ticket...</p>