Binge Drinking in US colleges - Renamed thread

Parents Forum
141

<p>Thanks, ID. I appreciate a serious reply. </p>

<p>I have already told my S that I don't plan to pay for frat dues, etc. When we visited, we asked the tour guides questions about the extent of drinking, though I wish now that I had asked at admissions too. Asked S about whether he saw any drinking when he stayed over night in the dorms (a Saturday night, in a freshman dorm) and what happened at the off campus apartment he stayed at on other nights. Saw no public vomiting or signs thereof, and when we picked him up each morning, he was tired but definitely not hung over. Asked a rescue squad/fireman we met at a display at a nearby farmers market, and got the perspective from him that drinking had decreased substantially. But how can I get actual data? Search the school newspaper? Call the school (like who - what office?) Just google a bit? What do you recommend?</p>

<p>Finally, if the mods want to start a new thread with ID's above post, so that Williams is out of the title, I'd support that.</p>

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<p>Did you ask your son directly if HE was drinking? Did you discuss your concerns with him? Honestly? Did you? Cuz you said a lot of other stuff but you didn't say anything directly about your son, other than he looked tired but not hungover.</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>I don't get it. In a previous thread, you were more concerned about secondary effects of drinking - i.e. on those who are indirectly affected. Based on this concern and your notion about what frat life entails, one would think that you would welcome the existence of frats to serve as the "bug lights" for those who drink the Bud Lights.</p>

<p>But, in reality there are good frats and bad frats. Just like there are good dorm floors and bad dorm floors or good apartments and bad apartments. To lump them all as one big drunken group is a gross over simplification.</p>

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<p>Absolutely, kiddly. I have asked him and he has said that he is not drinking. He will not tell us who among his teammates drink but we have talked about that in general too, and the fact that a drunk or hungover teammate is dangerous to himself and to the others with whom he practices or plays.</p>

<p>Since wine is a part of our family's celebration of Shabbat (the Jewish sabbath) as well as Jewish holidays, my kids have been allowed a small sip since they were small. When they reached their mid teens, we would offer a small glass if they wanted. My son never agrees because he knows he will be driving that evening - not even a sip, although he did have had some wine at Passover. I grew up in a home where my dad offered guests mixed drinks or wine. Once I was about 16, I was always included. My parents prefered that we learned about such things at home, that we understood moderation, and saw that there was nothing so special about drinking. I have never seen them drunk. So when I got to college, it was just no big deal. That held true for my daughter, and I think it will for my son. But he will be on a different campus and as an athlete/potential frat kid, the peer pressure will be different. So I want to be informed, and take the topic seriously.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Based on this concern and your notion about what frat life entails, one would think that you would welcome the existence of frats to serve as the "bug lights" for those who drink the Bud Lights.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>"Keep the losers out of our hair" is actually the rationalization for the continued existence of fraternities at my daughter's school. I think the existence of the two frats is a black mark on the school's reputation. The last student to organize a vote to get rid of them was some kid named Mike Dukakis. Couldn't muster the votes. But, the fact that the frats know the students have the power to vote them out of existence keeps them on a pretty short leash. It's just a matter of time. One of the two almost disappeared due to declining membership and finanicial insolvency a couple of years ago.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But, in reality there are good frats and bad frats. Just like there are good dorm floors and bad dorm floors or good apartments and bad apartments. To lump them all as one big drunken group is a gross over simplification.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No sale. </p>

<p>I'm with Xiggi on this one. They had their chance. Time to throw the baby out with the bathwater.</p>

<p>The mental image of Xiggi's friend lying in coma dying after a hazing binge while his drunken "brothers" not only did nothing to help him, but scribbled slurs on his body with magic markers is more than I can overcome. There is nothing worth saving in picture.</p>

146

<p>Thanks for depoliticizing the thread by renaming it.</p>

<p>I think it interesting and not entirely co-incidental that this thread is on the same board as that of "kids working too hard." I think that there is no doubt but that cramming in all that living in HS has something to do with the need for immediacy and degree of insatiability that underlies binge drinking. The intensity of living a HS life with 6 major EC's driving one to later and later nights has to have some consequences later on. It is unrealistic to think kids (or anyone) can truly maintain that pace forever, isn't it...and then, with the higher drinking age fewer kids (than in a previous era) have their first (legal) drinking experiences under the watchful eyes of their parents..</p>

<p>Where we live there is no drinking age and the kids do not drive. In our HS parents from many different cultures have different expectations for their kids in terms of curfews, alcohol consumption, etc.. While my husband and I haven't specifically condoned drinking outside the home for our 17 year old, we have gradually loosened his curfew over time and we are fairly certain he has a few beers now and then. He comes home and gets a hug and sniff and has never been intoxicated. In family social situations we offer wine and he might have a glass. Result: he has learned to be a social person while at the same time keeping alcohol consumption in moderation. I should add, he also has time to socialize, which makes the whole process more "complete."</p>

<p>When son #1 came home from college at Christmas break he commented on the plethora of kids, especially in the first quarter, who seemed to have no idea how to socialize without being plastered. Kids from our school, many of whom have had a tempered, gradual exposure to alcohol, often comment on the same thing at other colleges as well.</p>

<p>Son #1 goes to a school without any frats, both schools to which son #2 might go have frat life as a part of mixed and varied social scene. I personally worry less about him in this scene because I feel his HS life has prepared him well on many accounts...</p>

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<p>I am so glad this thread was renamed, because I believe this problem exists pretty much everywhere. A lot of ground has been covered here, but I do think there is a generational issue. There has been a sea change, especially regarding girls, about what is acceptable public behavior. (Who would have thunk it, back when we were busy liberating ourselves?) I sometimes wonder if the country has hammered away so hard at illegal drugs that the "good" kids have turned to alcohol instead, in the mistaken belief that it is safer.</p>

<p>Part of what's happening, I believe, is that there is so much more heavy high school drinking that kids hit college with a much higher tolerance. A couple of beers with the guys doesn't do it anymore. And, forgive me if I'm repeating what someone has said, but there is tremendous marketing of fortifield malt liquors (40's) and flavored hard liquors. I believe much of this is aimed at underage drinkers and the flavored drinks, especially, at young women.</p>

<p>Maineparent,
[quote]
One of my pearls of wisdom to my own son and to my summer sitters has been "consume a full glass of water for each drink or shot you have" in an effort to impress upon these kids that they need to slow down the consumption.....fill up on harmless stuff.....

[/quote]

I'm sorry, but water is NOT harmless. A fraternity hazing in California just killed a kid who was made to drink gallons of water, not liquor. It played havoc with his electrolytes. I'm not saying that's what you are advocating, but that the frat was apparently under the mistaken impression water was safe. It's hazing that is inherently unsafe. I say that, though my son (gulp) has joined a frat. He's paying the dues himself, and is not living in the house. But he did say one of the reasons was that he was getting tired of the bar scene... Not sure what to make of that.</p>

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<p>Yes, kudos to the mods for renaming the thread. There are a lot of important experiences and much information to be shared without acrimony.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
No sale. </p>

<p>I'm with Xiggi on this one. They had their chance. Time to throw the baby out with the bathwater.</p>

<p>The mental image of Xiggi's friend lying in coma dying after a hazing binge while his drunken "brothers" not only did nothing to help him, but scribbled slurs on his body with magic markers is more than I can overcome. There is nothing worth saving in picture.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Is this the kind of rationale thinking that you you are proud to exhibit in front of your daughter? I hope she learns better thinking skills and an ability to avoid stereotypying based on isolated incidences. Wow, just think where that kind of "logic" leads.</p>

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<p>Poor, poor stereotyped frat boys. I'm sure they were all really worried about unfair stereotyping as they were scribbling racial slurs on the comatose, dying body of their "brother".</p>

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<p>Fraternities aside, I'd rather discuss the much broader dimensions of the problem. </p>

<p>For example, anyone notice how many sitcoms and movies and ads feature young people holding beer or other drinks? Implication: you can't have fun without drinking. Or, holiday shopping this year, how every store from Target to Restoration Hardware was prominently displaying two things: poker chips and cocktail shakers. At stores I went into these were often in the young men's department -- impulse items next to the clothes college-age guys would wear. Just like poker on campus, cocktails are in and so are drinking games. Beirut (beer pong), drunk checkers (a shot every time you lose a piece). I even saw a chess set in which every piece doubled as a shot glass. Drunk chess!</p>

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<p>Gotta love the ad copy for the Shotglass Chess Set:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Barf Chess
That’s right… the title is self-explanatory. The first person to puke losses! (or wins depending on how drunk you are!)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>16 shots of whiskey for the chess loser. Might as well play a real adreniline game like Russian Roulette.</p>

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<p>I read part of a book by a former Bush speechwriter. I believe it was he who came up with the phrase "Evil Empires." Anyway, in the book he said that the current administration has a policy of not hiring anyone who abused drugs or alcohol <em>after</em> graduating from college. Thought this was interesting and relevant in that it indicates certain assumptions about college life. </p>

<p>Clearly there is one notable exception to said policy...:eek:</p>

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<p>Wish it was April, what we’re seeing at Williams is a definite tendency of athletes to be health conscious. No smoking, of course, but also no drugs and limited drinking as well. Since this approach flies in the face of the drunken jock image, it’s hard for some people to believe, but in fact I think it’s a trend and a very good one at that as it rubs off on the non-athletes. </p>

<p>I also believe that the negative publicity and public awareness has already affected campus culture in a positive sense. Williams doesn’t have frats, but my guess is that colleges that have big Greek systems are listening and reacting as well as are the frats themselves.</p>

<p>My son, who went to the same high school as Robyrm’s kids, wasn’t much of a drinker in high school. We live in a country where alcohol is not regulated so it was widely available and, I think, subsequently lost its allure. It seems that the kids from his high school group have pretty much maintained this moderation, even the ones who have gone to “party” schools. </p>

<p>The profile that’s harder to tackle is the kid who’s never had a drink in his/her life and who experiments and overdoes it. This is especially true of the 100 pound girls and Asians who can be very susceptible to the effects of alcohol. They often mask the unfamiliar, and therefore unpleasant, taste of alcohol in sweet drinks which just leads to other digestive problems. Anyone who's child falls in this category shsuld have a heart to heart BEFORE s/he leaves the nest. Many colleges promote a buddy system of drinking, but as anyone’s who’s ever over-indulged knows that that’s part of the problem: Once you’ve had too much you’re not likely to listen to anyone.</p>

<p>All of this attention on the dangers of excessive drinking can’t help but be a GOOD thing. Kids do look out for each other and I think that peer pressure to behave well is the best hope.</p>

<p>Personally, I’d like to see a lot less drinking in America in general. People near and dear to me have had ruinous experiences related to alcohol abuse and I’m not at all tolerant on this topic. Maybe it’s just because we boomers have now reached the age that drinking is decidedly un-sexy ;) but there seems to be a real movement toward bottled water as the beverage of choice, from the White House to the boardroom to Hollywood. I am optimistic that the colleges are also making progress in their attempts to educate and reform alcohol abuse. </p>

<p>Now on to drugs. . .</p>

<p>PS I appreciate the thread name change!</p>

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<p>Thanks, Momrath (love that name!) for your post. I really have a sense that my S will behave responsibly, but so many parents think that and then are amazed when the reverse is true. I am just trying to be realistic.</p>

<p>I've never really understood how athletes can also be heavy drinkers. My S really believes that for him to perform at his best, he needs to train or exercise (depending on the season), get enough sleep, and eat well. Seems pretty basic to me....He rarely manages to follow his own advice on the sleep part (these kids are just too busy) but he is very careful to stay in shape and to eat well. He is determined not to gain the freshman fifteen - another reason to not drink!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Wish it was April, what we’re seeing at Williams is a definite tendency of athletes to be health conscious. No smoking, of course, but also no drugs and limited drinking as well. Since this approach flies in the face of the drunken jock image, it’s hard for some people to believe, but in fact I think it’s a trend and a very good one at that as it rubs off on the non-athletes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While that may be the case at Williams, it is not the trend nationally. The national surveys show a pretty clear statistical correlation between participation in intercollegeiate athletics and higher consumption of alcohol on campus.</p>

<p>Using the 5/4 standard, the 1999 HSPH survey of 15,000 college students found an overall "binge drinking" rate for males of 50.7% and for male intercollegiate athletes of 55.1%. An overall rate for females of 40.0% and for female intercollegiate athletes of 49.7%. </p>

<p>My daughter's school follows the national trend. Certain athletic teams are, without question, the center of the heavy drinking that occurs (and also the core membership of the two fraternities).</p>

<p>
[quote]
The profile that’s harder to tackle is the kid who’s never had a drink in his/her life and who experiments and overdoes it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The national data doesn't show that high school non-drinkers are the problem. Quite the contrary, in fact. Again, the HSPH 1999 survey shows that college students who met the 5/4 binge drinking standard in high school reported binge drinking at a 73.9% rate in college. Those who did not binge drink in high school only reported binge drinking in college at a 31.1% rate.</p>

<p>I certainly have no answers. But, I believe that if you can get your kid through high school without drinking and have a two-way dialog about the issues of excessive drinking and avoid some of the incredibly high risk environments (i.e. frats), there is a very good chance that your kid will handle social drinking in college just fine. To me, the real key is a solid understanding of the risks associated with drinking at rates that allow blood alcohol levels to leapfrog ahead of any ability to pace the drinking: drinking games, chugging, fraternity hazing, birthday Russian Roulette "celebrations", and so and and so forth. </p>

<p>As a parent, I would GLADLY trade the occasional foray into the lower reaches of the 5/4 binge drinking standard for not chugging shots of whiskey or other activities that result in dangerously high BAC levels.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
To me, the real key is a solid understanding of the risks associated with drinking at rates that allow blood alcohol levels to leapfrog ahead of any ability to pace the drinking: drinking games, chugging, fraternity hazing, birthday Russian Roulette "celebrations", and so and and so forth.

[/quote]

Indeed.</p>

<p>BTW, I have seen several mentions of something called beer pong. What exactly is that?</p>

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<p>Beer pong is a binge drinking game that college drunks play. It involves trying to throw a ping pong ball into cups of beer placed on a table. A "successful" shot forces the opposing team to chug the beer.</p>

<p>Not as dangerous as drinking games played with shots of whisky, but the goal is to get [poop]-faced drunk.</p>

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<p>Charming. </p>

<p>I went to college from 68-72, and while there was a little alcohol around, that wasn't the substance of choice. But I don't remember anyone playing games. Those who wanted to indulge did so; others didn't. We all routinely attended the same dances, concerts and parties. No one put any pressure on anyone else to smoke or drink anything. It was there if you were inclined, that was all. The games sound awful.</p>

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<p>My son has also grown up in a culture where there is no drinking age limit, no driving until 18 and most kids use taxis or walk. Kids get to "experiment" within the confines of their village so to speak and by the time they graduate from high school, it is no big deal: alcohol has little allure.
My son has also commented that the problem is a suburban one. His friends in the states who live in the center of big cities with lots to do have a similar take on alcohol as he does. Some of those that grow up in the burbs seem to be more cut off socially and when they "escape," they blow off more steam.
This is just his comment on his experience with American kids that he knows from his summers in New England. But being a suburban kid myself, with memories of being surrounded by hills and winding roads, I think there may be something to it.</p>