<p>I am a little confused on this issue. </p>
<p>I understand that engineering is a tough major for premeds. But does that apply to bioengineering? Bioengineering seems to be a popular major for those considering medical school. </p>
<p>Does anyone have an opinion on this?</p>
<p>Engineering is tough. It doesn't matter what kind of engineering it is. On the other hand, it makes you stand out in a med school applicant pool, while still being relevant to medicine. And if med school falls through you have a backup career.</p>
<p>So I'd say, it's a tough option by the metric of how easy it is to get good grades, but a win in many respects.</p>
<p>Do you mean tough to do well in and earn a respectable GPA? Or tough, as in med schools don't like to accept engineers and prefer applicants with other majors?</p>
<p>I meant tough as to getting a high GPA. Also I have been told by many that since engineering is the toughest major you can take and being a premed alongwith engineering brings down your chances of admission to med school.</p>
<p>I don't have any stats to prove or disprove this.</p>
<p>I have no stats either. I just know that I'd personally prefer my doctor to have majored in engineering rather than sociology or women's studies.</p>
<p>
But medical schools don't seem to share that opinion. From everything I have read students from non-traditional disciplines such as women's studies stand an equal to or better chance of admissions. The level of Physics and math required on the MCAT is not that high, in fact one of the guru's on the premed site (BlueDevilMike) has said repeatedly that a non -AP Physics class in high school is prep enough. </p>
<p>Remember , some/most of these kids will be taking the MCAT after their sophomore year in college. If they are committed to med school , I would suggest printing off an outline of the MCAT courses/topics covered and adjust accordingly based on the strengths of the student. For example, even though my D can skip freshmen writing courses because of her AP scores, she will not do so as it is her weakest point at this time.</p>
<p>curmudgeon: Is that because med schools are actively seeking non-traditional majors? Or because there is so much grade inflation in those soft majors that the GPAs are higher?</p>
<p>So if the MCATs don't test higher level math & science, a true math/sci wiz can't really stand out from the crowd?</p>
<p>I would say that is true about Math and Physics on the MCAT (and there are those that consider the MCAT to be the prime criterion). Chem and Bio are certainly higher than high school level but remember even then Chem through organic is only 2 years, and only one year of bio is required-except Texas is two years bio. That's all.</p>
<p>Look, we wrestled at my house with the same questions. It really came down to "How sure was she that she wanted to be a Doc?' and then a decision to do what was necessary to put her in the place that would make that the most possible. School selection, opps for research and shadowing at Med Centers, course selection, quality of advising all went in to her decision. </p>
<p>If grade point and MCAT are the two most identifiable qualifiers, wouldn't it make sense to try to maximize those two "knowns" at a school that gets a lot of kids into med school?</p>
<p>Now, had her answer been "Dad. I want to do something in Engineering. Maybe Bio-med. And I want to consider med school." We'd have gone the other way. But she was trying to use her bio-med degree as a feather in her cap to med school and from our research that doesn't appear to be the case.</p>
<p>Edit: Do this .Get an outline that lists topics covered on the MCAT and let your kid go through them in math and physics, even bio and chem, and the verbal section (whatever it's called). They know a lot of this stuff already. (I think it's possible that a few advanced high school students might make a "not that embarrassing" score before starting college and with zero prep.)</p>
<p>I know that some hate this pre-professional side of the process, but love the kid you have, right? Mine wants to be a Doc/researcher in a medical field so she'll set her goal at a strong GPA and a monster MCAT score while being a well rounded bio major with big EC's.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It is my impression that med schools actively seek non-science majors, on the theory that they bring a valuable approach to the profession, and that doctors have to communicate effectively with the Great Unwashed. (I know two people on med school admissions committees. One, a very senior MD, agrees wholeheartedly with this. One, a biophysics researcher, doesn't necessarily, but regards most science-major med school applicants as only marginally more "scientific" than humanities people. He actually feels less contempt for the non-science-majors, because he doesn't expect them to know more than they do.) On the whole, I don't think there are that many non-science majors applying to med schools, but when they do the grade inflation in those fields may help them stand out, too.</p></li>
<li><p>Per my friend the biophysicist med-school faculty member: No self-respecting math/sci wiz would want to go to med school (OK, maybe a few MD/PhD candidates are OK, if they have a good excuse). Most med students are clever memorizers with no interest in learning anything beyond what they need to get a good grade on the next test. Of course the MCATs don't test anything high level -- if it did, the medical schools would be empty.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Very depressing assessment of current med students. </p>
<p>I know several surgeons who worked as engineeers for a while before going to med school. They're middle-aged. Every doc I know was a math/sci wiz. Most are excellent communicators. Some are quite funny. Anecdotal, I know. But I personally would choose a fabulous diagnostician math/sci doc over a warm/fuzzy but weak on the brilliance side doc.</p>
<p>I wonder if med school applicants are less likely to include the best & the brightest because new docs aren't making as much $$$ anymore?</p>
<p>
I have no idea how to answer that as my D hasn't looked to see what the difference in income might be between a bio-med engineer and a medical doctor and a biology/neuroscience Phd ( the only three things she's wanted to be.) I don't think that entered into her equation (although lifestyle issues between the professions have and will continue to be a factor, maybe the deciding factor. We'll see.).</p>
<p>Don't get the wrong idea. I think the med school applicants ARE math science whiz's. They just chose to become more humanistically educated rather than take all math and science courses. Maybe not all of them are "the" most brilliant whiz kid but definitely among the top science kids at their high school and maybe even college. IOW, I don't think med schools are "dumbing" down if that's what you were suggesting.</p>
<p>First of all, StickerShock, let me make clear that I think my friend was using hyperbole. His contempt for medical school students is real (although maybe augmented as a ploy to keep his teaching obligations to a minimum), but the centerpiece of it is that he thinks they don't care much about real science -- basic research, and figuring out exactly HOW things work, as opposed to learning what seems to work best most of the time.</p>
<p>I know a number of docs who were not math/sci wizs, and some who were:</p>
<p>My 43-year-old sister recently completed her EM residency. She was a B+ History major at the University of Arizona, and then worked in the securities trading industry for years. When she decided she wanted to go to med school, she hadn't taken a real science course since she was 15. She started a post-bac pre-med program at age 32, with no margin for error whatsoever. I think she is probably a fine ER doctor -- her trading-floor ability to think on her feet, make quick, confident decisions, and rally the troops is perfect there. (She did very well in med school and residency, by the way.) She is NOT warm or fuzzy -- never has been, never will be.</p>
<p>One of my college roommates is chair of oncology at a major med school / teaching hospital. He always thought of himself as a math/sci wiz, and he probably was. Pretty short in the human department, though. Another was also a science major, though never thought of himself as brilliant -- just a hard worker who really wanted to be a doctor, but also thought about politics and philosophy a lot. Now in charge of QA at a really major teaching hospital and a pretty well-known "outcomes" researcher (i.e., social science techniques applied to medicine). A great person.</p>
<p>One friend was a fine arts (painting) major in college. Another majored in Chinese. Another was a sociology major / crew jock / Peace Corps type who did her pre-med work post-bac. All three went to top-5 med schools; the last was chair of infectious diseases at a top-5 med school.</p>
<p>And of course any number of science wizzes (not so much math), most of whom are plenty warm and fuzzy, some not. One well-travelled academic is so irrational and vindictive in his personal dealings that I would hesitate to go to him with a medical problem, although I probably would. One successful psychiatrist, married with young kids, has a semi-secret life as a transvestite that his wife tolerates because she loves him.</p>
<p>My point is that good doctors can come from a surprising variety of backgrounds, and can be good people or not. There's not necessarily a whole lot of correlation among the various elements, except that in general they're all really smart. (I haven't done the research to prove that, of course.) By the time someone finishes his or her residency, that person has spent as many years (and many, many more waking hours) in formal medical training as he or she spent in high school and college combined. Why would you hold a few extra humanities or social science courses against them?</p>
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Why would you hold a few extra humanities or social science courses against them?
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<p>I wouldn't. A women's studies major is made up almost exclusively of soft courses. More than a few courses for sure. I'd prefer a kid applying to med school take an approach like curmudgeon's: she has MD as a goal, but also an interset in research/bio-med. So she'll find a major that gets her to that point with the best GPA. I'm assuming she's still following a math/sci path of some sort. Not simply jumping into a soft major to pump up her GPA. Just avoiding a killer major that won't increase her med school chances.</p>
<p>I know docs who've come to the profession from different routes. I'd have no problem with a poet who became a doc, provided he took the time to build up his science credentials. I'm hoping that med school & the Boards would weed out any sociology majors who used that as an end-run around the GPA requirement & couldn't keep up with the real math/sci classmates.</p>
<p>I think that a securities trader has the exact type of disposition to succeed as an ER doc. She did, however, prove her science aptitude in her pre-med program.</p>
<p>hopkins and penn are great examples where BioEngineering students go on to great Med Schools</p>
<p>STicker--no one can "end run" around the real sciences to get into med school, but neither do they have to do the hardest possible sciences, or research, or be math whizzes, to get into med school.</p>
<p>There is a standard pre-med curriculum tht needs to be done, either concurrently with whatever one is majoring, or afterward in a post-bac program. It covers the science necessary for med school. The cornerstone and often weeding out course is organic chem. It's tough for many people, largely, as I understand, in that it's really a critical thinking course(no personal experience--pure English major here!). My D, the bio turned poli sci major loved that course and left the pre-meds in the dust (never, ever wanted to be a pre-med, she was considering marine bio till she got the government bug.)</p>
<p>My H, a former MD, also really liked organic and did great in it. He was a philosophy major, specializing in ethics. I personally like that in a doctor!</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, we are going through exactly these issues with my son. He is sure he wants to be a doctor so your plan of action with your daughter, "to do what was necessary to put her in the place that would make that the most possible - school selection, opps for research and shadowing at Med Centers, course selection, quality of advising etc." would be the thing to do.</p>
<p>I think my son is attracted to engineering because he enjoys math and physics at school and would like to be challenged. At the same time I think he is looking at it as an alternative career option in case he does not get into med school.</p>
<p>I think maybe a compromise would be for him to major in the sciences and see if he can minor in bio med or something. He needs to make sure that he takes a sufficient amount of physics and math so he will have the option of a going for graduate degree in biomed if he wants to do so later.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the input</p>
<p>garland, I like ethics in a doc, too! I'm aware of the pre-med requirements. I just would not want to encourage those seeking med school admission to take the bare minimum in math/science and fill their transcripts with courses that don't enrich them (or interest them,) but merely lead to a high GPA.</p>
<p>I have no problem, of course, with someone like curmudgeon's daughter. I would think BME is a great background for a doctor, and I can't believe that any medical school would knowingly discriminate against BME majors in their admissions process.</p>
<p>But ALL the people I described proved their aptitude at one point or another. More importantly, they delivered on their aptitude, too: the sociology major didn't get to be chair of infectious diseases (a VERY hot field -- can you say "H-I-V"?) at the Y place by being unimpressive as a scientist. Even though at 23 she had never taken Organic Chemistry or Physics.</p>
<p>What people do AFTER they enter medical school is a lot more relevant to their quality as doctors than what they did in high school or college. It's clear that you can learn all the science you need to know to succeed in med school in 18 months, because people do that. So almost by definition you don't have to be a great scientist to succeed in med school. And being a doctor is not the same as being a scientist at all. As I said already, my great (or at least successful) scientist friend who is "forced" (i.e., paid a lot) to deal with MDs and medical students on a regular basis is constantly exercised about the low quality of what passes for science and research among them at a pretty good, although not tippy-top-tier, medical school. (I can guess what they think of him, too. As far as I can tell, here is the approximate breakdown of his time: Building and tinkering with research equipment - 30%; grantwriting - 15%; reviewing others' grant applications and articles - 15%; acting as his own HR director - 10%; presenting papers to and schmoozing with future peer reviewers of his articles and grant applications - 10%; institutional politics - 5%; research - 5%; writing (editing) articles - 5%; teaching - 5%; saving lives - 0%. He works with fruit flies.)</p>
<p>Women's studies: My wife was a women's studies major before such a thing existed -- a double major in psychology (heavily oriented towards gender issues) and American studies (heavily oriented towards women's history). She has worked with, for, and over many MDs over the years (as a public health official, she was the first non-MD to hold one particular position). You will have to trust me when I tell you that absolutely no one doubts her intellectual rigor, certainly not the medical community in her field.</p>