Bleak times in Big Law

<p>futurenyustudent, in your scenario I think that what you want to pursue is the right path. It is better for you to try to get into the best law school you could and devote 100% of your time during the three years to it.<br>
When I literally said, "pick between these options" I mistyped and I was trying to say what options I had and I would choose based on my situation.

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As for the National Guard-I value my life and limbs. I'm not going to risk my personal safety for an education. I want to go to law school, but not that desperately. Like I've said before, you can't go to law school if you're dead.

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I understand that and I know many people that have the same perspective. However, it should be noted that I didn't join the National Guard for the sole purpose of it's non-monetary benefits.
Based on my experience, if you want get ahead in life and be a leader you have to take risks. However, that doesn't mean that we take them blindly. Leaders are paid "big bucks" to manage that risk.
Military commitment/service isn't just about risking your life and limbs. Yes, that's part of the job, but it's much more than that. It's about personal challenge, learning how to lead and manage effectively, and becoming stronger physically and mentally to overcome obstacles.
Not to mention the fact that we tend to get a ton of @ss. ;)</p>

<p>Polo, </p>

<p>Are you a recruiter? Everyone of your posts I see the National Guard mentioned at least once, lol.</p>

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Polo, </p>

<p>Are you a recruiter? Everyone of your posts I see the National Guard mentioned at least once, lol.

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Not at all. I see a lot of posts that deal with ROI and debt and all I wanted to do is let people know of a way to mitigate that issue when pursuing higher education.
The last thing I would want is someone in the military just for the sole purpose of extracting educational benefits without realizing someday they may be deployed to a combat environment for an extended period of time.
All I will ever do is let someone be informed, but I'll leave the recruiting for the recruiters to do. I use it as an example in many cases to question any stereotypes or misconceptions out there.</p>

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The average NYU grad makes about $55k fresh out of school.

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<p>Not anymore</p>

<p>The mean salary for respondents at the time of the survey [2008] decreased slightly to $49000.</p>

<p>Center</a> for Career Development</p>

<p>Furthermore, I would invoke the point I made before: New York is a very expensive city. I would venture to say that it's rather difficult to live on $49k (or even $55k).</p>

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In the long term, I'm better off doing a full time JD, getting much better grades, and getting a great law firm job rather than doing a part time JD while holding down a job and getting lesser grades (I have one rule-never bite off more than I can chew-it's worked pretty well for me so far). My JD won't be worth the paper it's written on if I had a 2.7 in law school.

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<p>The presumption is that you actually will get strong grades at a full-time program. What if you don't? </p>

<p>In fact, I would argue that you might actually get better grades at a part-time program than at a full-time program. How's that? Simple: most law school grading is curved. Sure, I agree that you will probably be harried for time if working while going to law school part-time. But what you forget is so will your competition. Hence, you may well end up as the top performer on a relative basis, and that's all that really matters.</p>

<p>In fact, I would argue that a truly brilliant strategy is to simply find a cushy, stress-free jobs where there really isn't that much work that needs to be done. Surprisingly, there are many jobs like this. (I know quite a few people who hold these kinds of jobs.) Granted, they tend to be with boring, mediocre companies and they don't usually pay very much. But who cares? What matters is that you have ample free time with which you can study. </p>

<p>I'll give you an example. I know a guy who is a cracker-jack IT guy: basically the guy who maintains a company's computer servers and network routers. He took a job at a small, no-name company that had significant problems with their servers, and within a month, he had fixed them all and made them all run smoothly. What that meant is that he now had very little work to do - he estimated that from that point on, while he still had to show up, he only had to do real work for only 1-2 hours a day, because everything was working well. Granted, he could have quit and moved on to another job which would have paid him better. But he realized that he had a quite cushy job, as the company wouldn't dare terminate him because he's the only guy who understood their server systems, and he could always say that he was working on new IT projects which nobody at the company would be able to question anyway. {And besides, he figured, why should he be 'punished' for being competent enough to know how to fix the original problems such that there isn't much work to do afterwards?} So he kept the job and spend most of each day working on his own side projects, including launching his own startup firm. It hardly looked suspicious at all, because he was clearly working on some technology, just not a technology that had anything to do with that particular company. </p>

<p>Similarly, I'm quite certain there are plenty of jobs out there in which you could probably spend a good fraction of the day just studying, and nobody would really notice. Or even if they did notice, the worst they could do is fire you, whereupon you just find another job. Again, keep in mind that you don't really care about being a great employee with a great career. You're not really interested in getting into the best possible company and then being the best possible employee there, because after all, you're going to be making a career change to becoming a lawyer anyway. All you really want is a low-stress job that provides you with ample free time to study.</p>

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Law school is an incredibly time consuming degree and it's not something I'm willing to take on while holding down a full time job (esp. if I end up in a job like consulting that involves a lot of travel).

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<p>Why would you want to do that? Like I said above, if you're going to be a lawyer anyway through part-time law school, then why exactly would you take on a high-stress job such as consulting? What would you gain from that? You're (presumably) not going to be pursuing a business career anyway, so why choose consulting? Like I just said in my immediately previous post, the best strategy is to find some cushy, low-stress job that provides you with ample free time. Sure, it probably won't be a 'prestigious' job that pays that well, but so what? You're going to be switching careers to be a lawyer in a few years anyway, so who cares?</p>

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Frankly, I think this had to happen. Seriously, $160k is a ludicrous salary to pay for somebody who is just 25 or 26 years old and with just a law degree.

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<p>What is truly ludicrous is that a college graduate, typically around 22-23 years of age, was making the same $160K when the economy peak in 2007. The top-tier analysts at bulge bracket firms were making just that. It was actually amusing for me to see first year analysts right out of undergrad making as much as newly-minted HLS graduates (or to see second year analysts yelling at newly-minted lawyers over a typo). The joke on the Street back then was that a 'BigLaw lawyer' was simply a banker who couldn't do math...</p>

<p>And we all thought it could last...</p>

<p>Now those analysts are back to making ~$65K, and a small dose of 'reality' has been injected into the Street's culture; most are now thrilled just with being employed, eager to make it to a PE shop before their careers get ruined. It's not amusing, however, to see that the salary for lawyers is being dragged down with them...</p>

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... all I wanted to do is let people know of a way to mitigate that issue when pursuing higher education.

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<p>Which is nice, I suppose. But, at times, it feels like you toot too much on your National Guard Hoorah horn. It's nice you figured out a 'loophole' through which you can maximize exploiting the resources that the military system offers. It doesn't follow, however, that others may be as successful in doing so. If that's truly your motive, then you might want to share about the pitfalls too, as well as about potential choke-points that people may encounter.</p>

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The last thing I would want is someone in the military just for the sole purpose of extracting educational benefits without realizing someday they may be deployed to a combat environment for an extended period of time.

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<p>...'combat environment for an extended period of time'... or being handicapped, or disable, or face death. The negatives associated with taking such path are serious, and ought to be presented as well. So far, I've only seen you point out 'how great is to be able to pick up four to five degrees while serving in the national guard'.</p>

<p>"The joke on the Street back then was that a 'BigLaw lawyer' was simply a banker who couldn't do math..."</p>

<p>The one admirable exception were newly minted lawyers at Wachtell... who, I guess, were for the most part former bankers who went to law school (i.e. usually former investment banking financial analysts...).</p>

<p>Sakky, if I'm going to switch careers anyway, why even bother entering a temporary career? The loss of insignificant income in the short run isn't that important to me. It's not like my parents are having a hard time putting food on the table. I'll freeload for the three years if need be.</p>

<p>"Last edited by paying3tuitions; Today at 12:17 PM. Reason: privacy; speculating on member identities"</p>

<p>Oh, come on... I only signed my own post, the original version of my post had already been edited by myself... someone felt alluded by my signature? Funny. </p>

<p>Trust me, there was no speculation.</p>

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Sakky, if I'm going to switch careers anyway, why even bother entering a temporary career?

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<p>Uh, that's quite a strange question coming from you, as you're the one who (hypothetically) proposed to take a consulting job while attending law school part-time. So I could easily ask you your own question: why would you want to take that highly stressful consulting job temporarily if you're just going to end up as a lawyer anyway? </p>

<p>I think the answer is that you wouldn't. You would find a job that, as I recommended, is easy and carefree that requires you to do real work for only a few hours a day, hence providing you with ample time for other endeavors (like studying).</p>

<p>Surprisingly there are many jobs like this. Heck, at my gym, most of the trainers spend most of the day reading magazines and books. They only do real work when they're hired for personal training sessions or re-racking the weights every hour or so. And obviously they'll aid you if you hurt yourself while lifting or you get stuck under the bar. Granted, they're not getting paid great, but it's not bad either especially when you consider how much free time they have.</p>

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I'll freeload for the three years if need be.

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<p>Which may be part of a truly brilliant strategy if you go to law school part-time. As we discussed before, most students in part-time programs are working. Many will be tired and won't have adequate time to study. On the other hand, if you don't even have a job at all, then you have more time than the other students to study which means that you should be able to crush the grade curve. This is a footrace in which everybody else would be carrying a weight plate on their back except for you. </p>

<p>My point is, part-time programs can be pretty good deals for some people. Now, are they for everybody? Of course not. If you can get into one of the top (full-time) law schools such as YHS, then you should probably go there. But if you can't, then a strong part-time program such as Georgetown should be given serious consideration.</p>