BME JHU v Rice

JHU is the top Biomedical engineering school in the nation with a #1 ranking on U.S. News
Rice also has a substantial ranking of #4

  • what would be the advantage of studying at JHU versus Rice and vice versa?

Rice is known to have one of the happiest students, a collaborative environment and a high return on investment (Payscale, Princeton Review)

JHU has a reputation of having cutthroat competitive students and a cutthroat grading curve

  • Does Rice have a cutthroat curve similar to JHU?

Both have access to top research facilities and hospitals

  • does one trump the other?

Should I decide not to major in biomedical eng and switch to another type of engineering, (i.e. chem, mech etc.)

  • Which school has the best overall engineering department?
  • Would one help me get into graduate school (PhD) more than the other?

Thank you in advance

Most of the metric differences between these schools are minimal since both have premiere engineering programs associated with massive R&D budgets (Rice’s budget is much, much smaller though as discussed below) and huge medical programs (hence they both have stellar BME programs). Both schools are known for their engineering programs overall if you do decide to switch majors. In terms of ranking surveys given to key opinion leaders, which have limited value in terms of metrics an undergrad should care about (faculty size, research opportunities, career support, academic advising), JHU is ranked #15 for Best Undergraduate Engineering Programs and Rice is #18 - a negligible difference (http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate/page+2). Again, both programs are stellar for any engineering, and what truly will affect career success, PhD placement, etc. is not which program you enroll in but rather your success at either school. If you do well at either school (strong research experiences, rec letters, good grades) then there is no reason why you won’t succeed in your future endeavors. Ranking differences of a few (even 10-20, honestly) have little to do with outcomes and simply mean they will provide you similar resources and opportunities for you to take advantage of. The rest is on you.

You do want to be happy at whatever school you attend, but again, that has less to do with the school and more with you. I was a premed Neuroscience major at Hopkins, as competitive as it will get at our school, and there was NO cutthroat behavior (no lab sabotages, no hiding library reference books, etc.). None of the shenanigans that are constantly rumored were ever seen by me or anyone I asked past or present who actually went to school there. Every assumes and the rumor perpetuates itself. Yes, the school is competitive. Students work very hard and most people naturally put pressure on themselves to study longer as they see their peers working diligently. I saw this as a great motivator and worked even harder, but it was a collaborative setting and was never mean-spirited. You can look at new building designs on the JHU campus including the Brody Learning Commons or Malone Hall and see that they are large open floorpans designed for collaboration and interdisciplinary research. This produces the best research and the best learning outcomes and is how the world operates. People don’t work alone and so JHU (and most universities I’m sure) emphasizes group projects, group learning, and team-based problem solving. Basically, don’t discount JHU based on rumors of cutthroat behavior since it simply isn’t true.

Also remember that actually going to a school that is stress free (and I can tell you students in the Rice BME program are not stress free, that’s just naive to think) may not be such a good thing since life is stressful, work is stressful and grad school is stressful. Learning early on to manage stress in a healthy way and learning skills like time management, organization, etc. will lead to better outcomes and a healthier life. Don’t worry about stress and competition because these will occur in any stellar program at any great school, it all will depend on you and how you handle the stress. If you’re around people who are stressing you out and not contributing to your learning process then find new people to study with. It’s that simple. Don’t let these false stereotypes be the basis for why you pass up on JHU.

If you want to get picky, the Hopkins Healthcare system is larger and more prestigious than either the UT Houston or Baylor Medical programs associated with Rice. I’m not sure how well Rice is integrated with the UT & Baylor system since Rice technically does not have its own medical school, but I suspect it is well integrated given the stellar BME program. Additionally, both are considered large research universities, but Hopkins does have a significantly (significantly!) larger overall R&D budget and engineering budget than Rice http://www.bestcolleges.com/features/colleges-with-highest-research-and-development-expenditures/. I will disclaim though that a significant portion of the overall R&D at Hopkins and its engineering budget are dedicated to the Applied Physics Lab (about 1.1 billion dollars, half) which is 40 minutes away from the undergraduate campus. Undergrad students do conduct research at APL (engineering, primarily), but there are significant barriers to those resources. Most likely BME research would not be conducted there, and even if it were, you probably wouldn’t be willing to drive there, so I wold cut the JHU R&D budget in half when comparing. Even then, JHU clearly has a larger budget compared to Rice, which does not rank in the top 50 in terms of R&D budgets, which can be translated to more opportunities for early and more meaningful undergrad research (again though, both schools have stellar research programs).

As for specifics, I’ve heard from other JHU BME posters on this site (and witnessed from my friends who were BMEs) that the program emphasizes design. Most students will take a prototype design class their junior or senior year that has you work with medical staff from the Hopkins Med School to solve a real-world problem by designing a prototype. Students have gone on to market these products, so this truly is a real-world, meaningful experience. Hands-on learning that addresses real world problems with meaningful outcomes (an actual prototype) is what a strong engineering program should do to prepare you for a career in engineering, and the Hopkins BME program does this well. I’ve also heard students praise the program for its actual teaching of BME content. Many engineering schools teach BME as a mash-up of basic engineering courses and then biology courses and try to jam it together, but Hopkins truly does teach courses from a BME perspective and integrates the content well as a unified topic rather than some chimera of biology and engineering. I cannot speak to Rice about this, but I’m sure being ranked #4 in BME they offer similar benefits.

Regarding more general things, both schools are located in major cities (Houston is the fourth largest city in the U.S. with over 2 million people and Baltimore has about 620,000 people, fourth largest on East Coast). There is plenty to do in both cities with your free time. I can’t speak to Houston specifically, but I can tell you I had a blast in Baltimore. Additionally, the East Coast has tons of other neighboring cities like DC, Philly, and NYC which are all weekend getaways (DC is only 45 mins away) that I managed to fit into my hectic schedule multiple times. Houston, on the other hand, is a little more isolated with Dallas, Austin and New Orleans being the major cities worth visiting nearby that are 3-6 hours away. The East Coast does offers better transportation options than the South.

As for income data and ROI, I know JHU constantly ranks lower than many other schools and I’m curious to know what the impact of having the highest per capita of premeds would have on 20 or 30-year net incomes given close to a quarter of JHU students are going the premed route, which (when including two gap years, less than the national average of four gap years) has students going to school/training/applying for another 8-12 years after graduation with limited income during residency and $100,000s in debt. Unless you can find specific data on engineering majors (or at least some way to account for the significantly higher than average premed numbers), income/ROI data seems to be of limited value.

Some other general info on Hopkins can be found on these threads:

Safety: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/johns-hopkins-university/1821701-questions-about-baltimore.html#latest

Social Life, Things to do in Baltimore, etc.: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/johns-hopkins-university/1878658-johns-hopkins-vs-cornell.html#latest

Thank you so much for breaking down all this information.

"PhD placement, etc. is not which program you enroll in but rather your success at either school. If you do well at either school (strong research experiences, rec letters, good grades) then there is no reason why you won’t succeed in your future endeavors. "

  • thank you especially for this. There is so much that I don't know and I am desperately trying to look at both schools from every angle and figure out which environment would be ideal for me to be successful in.

I will look into the ROI to see if they break it down even further

Your insight has been extremely valuable in processing a decision, thank you.

If you have an answer, I would like to know what type of research in common for undergrads i.e. lab helpers who aid the graduate students; are under grads allowed to conduct their own projects; is it common for undergrads to publish; would I have to compete with graduate students for research positions?

Where did you go after JHU?

Thanks again - (I can’t say it enough)

No worries, glad to help. There are many labs (many labs) students work/volunteer in at JHU. Many of the labs are with the various graduate schools (e.g. School of Public Health, School of Medicine), some are with the undergrad colleges, some are with APL, and some are with the NIH or even a JHU/NIH combination. Your experience in the lab largely depends on the PI (principle investigator, typically the individual who won the grant that got the lab the money and is heading up a particular research project or the lab as a whole) and how he decides to delegate workload amongst his employees, grad and undergrad students (as well as the demeanor of these people). Of course there are better labs than others for what an undergrad wants: hands-on experience, mentorship, a strong rec letter, and meaningful (and recognized) contribution to published research.

I can tell you my experience, which was very positive. I started researching my second semester of freshman year in an NIH/JHU lab and spent 3 1/2 years there (most summers as a paid intern). I landed the intern position with a single email and no competition whatsoever. This was a small lab of only four other students (two of them grad students) and about 15 researchers, so there was tons of mentorship and meaningful relationships. Working a long time in a single lab is ideal since you learn the ins and outs and can contribute meaningfully (normally the first six months in a lab you’re just trying to get your bearing). I got multiple publications while there, a strong rec letter and learned many useful skills that I put on my resume.

Everyone starts in a lab doing some grunt work (running gels, washing glassware, cleaning cages, selecting breeding pairs, genotyping, etc.), so the longer you spend in a lab the more skills you can learn and opportunities you have to prove yourself. Starting research your senior year anywhere (at any school) probably means you won’t get a chance to do much of value, which is why I always emphasize that early and sustained research experience is the most important thing (in my opinion) for a stellar science education.

Almost all ( I want to say all) my JHU science friends had research experience (most majors require it). Those who spent at least two years in a lab (most of my friends) got at least one publication with their name on it. Just make sure you do some research on the lab before you inquire with the PI so you know what you’re getting yourself into. Some PIs have egos, some are friendly, and on and on.

I’m currently in medical school at my top choice so it all worked out for me. But it wasn’t just because I went to JHU, but because I worked hard. People get into their dream medical school (grad school, profession) from all kinds of undergrads - the common denominator is seizing opportunities and working hard. Simple as that.