Brown v. JHU

<p>I am a rising senior at a public high school in Southern NH. My major of choice is biomedical engineering, so you can see why i looked at JHU; in addition, though, Brown's open-curriculum is one of the smartest things i've ever heard of and definitely something I would enjoy participating in. </p>

<p>Although it does not have the strongest biomed program, i feel like my undergraduate experience at Brown would be so much more well-rounded than at JHU in terms of studying and socializing (maybe JHU for grad. school then?). I'm afraid that JHU will have an environment too cutthroat for my liking, and I will be stuck in my room studying every night. From what i've heard, Brown is totally collaborative, unlike JHU. I have visited both schools already and love both campuses.</p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

<p>The cutthroat rumors have been dispelled countless times on this forum, so I won’t explain it. You can search for it if you’re interested. Hopkins also has an open curriculum, so you are simply required to fulfill distribution requirements. What those classes are is completely up to you. So if you really like political science, you can fulfill those requirements with all political science classes (although you need 2 writing courses and I don’t think political science has too many of those). [JHU</a> Biomedical Engineering - Undergraduate Program Requirements](<a href=“http://www.bme.jhu.edu/academics/ugrad/ugrad_bsrequire.html]JHU”>http://www.bme.jhu.edu/academics/ugrad/ugrad_bsrequire.html) has the list of what you need. tanman can give you more information on BME.</p>

<p>YOU WANT TO GO TO BROWN. you probably didnt even care to do some digging about hopkins’ cutthroat rumors. they are CLEARLY outdated and false.</p>

<p>go to brown. you really shouldnt choose a school based on a major alone. what if you find you are not interested in bme or realize that it’s too tough for you to do and come out with a high gpa? brown is super grade inflated-highest in the nation. the average gpa is now in the 3.6 region! yikes</p>

<p>but for the social aspects, i think you are loony for assuming brown would be more fun. baltimore >>> providence in terms of things to do and hopkins students are not drones. we like to have fun like any other students at top schools. </p>

<p>ps there are super competitive people at every school, especially the ivies where kids start gunning for admission from middle school and primarily go for pre business, law, med, [insert grad school], etc. that doesnt mean you cant be collaborative- it only means most people are highly motivated and willing to put in work for good grades.</p>

<p>to be honest, i’m tired of this cutthroat nonsense. these “rumors” of cutthroat disappear once you start going here. you learn quickly that studying in groups is the best way to survive in many courses and the people in your classes are no more neurotic than you are. if it was anywhere near as bad as these high school rumors, people would be transferring out like crazy or killing each other haha</p>

<p>a more pragmatic view point: our retention rates (96.5%) are just as high as any school (brown: 97.5%) and hardly anyone can transfer in.</p>

<p>so yeah, if you really like brown more than hopkins, go to brown. just make sure your facts are straight before you make your decision.</p>

<p>PPS:</p>

<p>emma watson (from the harry potter movies) in an incoming freshman at brown. that’s pretty cool, i think. that would tip the balance for me! (no, not really, but i thought it was a interesting fact.)</p>

<p>Ummm…</p>

<p>If you’re serious about BME, pick JHU no doubt.</p>

<p>In my opinion, I would search to see what you’re really interested in before choosing what college you’re interested in. That’s my biggest regret in the college admissions process.</p>

<p>Since both schools are very competitive to get into, I’d apply to both, cross my fingers, and be overjoyed at an acceptance to either.</p>

<p>I’m very familiar with both schools. Both are very good schools, and thus you are not going to make a serious mistake by choosing either. And while you seem to have fallen victim to the old cutthroat myth (which is false–Hopkins students are as collaborative as Brown students), you are correct about the cultures of the two schools being quite different. This is important to any decision (assuming of course that the admissions committees provide you the option of making a choice).</p>

<p>I’ll start with Brown. Someone mentioned that Emma Watson is going to Brown. I hadn’t heard that but wouldn’t be surprised if it were true. Brown has for years specifically targeted celebrities and their progeny. They also target rich, European jet-setters and royalty. While many Brown students don’t get to interact much with these campus stars (many don’t do much academically and were attracted by Brown’s lack of requirements), I guess its fun to tell your friends that you go to school with (fill in the blank). These people would never be attracted to Hopkins because there is no “free pass” way to get through Hopkins–even for top athletes.</p>

<p>Brown is classified as a R1 university (research intensive) but it is primarily focused on undergraduates. It has a few highly ranked departments (applied math, computer science, geology) but most of its graduate programs are not that highly regarded. Outside of the departments I mentioned, there is little cutting edge research going on. Of course, one can argue that top ranked graduate programs and research have little importance to undergraduates. That is a popular point of view but one I fundamentally disagree with.</p>

<p>Brown is also famous for its political correctness. If your political leanings are liberal or left-wing–you will be comfortable at Brown. But be aware that deviation from liberal orthodoxy is greatly frowned upon (in other words, it is not a very liberal place in the true sense of the word). Moderate and conservative students who do not get in line behind the liberal orthodoxy will be shunned and made to feel very unwelcome. Brown students likely will spend fours years without ever hearing a conservative speaker on campus, or learning about a conservative point of view in the classroom. </p>

<p>Hopkins, on the other hand, is a very different place. Its mission is not teaching undergraduates. Its mission is expanding human knowledge for the world. Undergraduates have a role in that mission because they are the future researchers and expanders of knowledge. Thus, their proper training is important–more important than ensuring that undergraduates are having a good time. Yes, enjoying your time as an undergraduate is important (and the university has devoted a lot of resources in recent years in improving the undergraduate experience) but it takes a back seat against producing a well qualified future researcher (regardless of whether that person eventually becomes a doctor, lawyer, professor, or entrepreneur). Thus, there is no question that academics and training are number one at JHU.</p>

<p>Hopkins is also much more politically balanced and tolerant than Brown. While most students and faculty lean liberal, there are some famous conservatives on the faculty (particularly at SAIS) and, for sure, all viewpoints will be heard and discussed. Because of this tolerance, some left-wing people consider Hopkins to be conservative. It’s not. </p>

<p>How does having a top graduate school and ton’s of funded research help undergraduates? First, graduate students are a lot closer to your age and thus can easier serve as mentors. Second, the opportunities to do research as an undergraduate–as an important part of your training–are immense. That’s not to say that opportunities like that don’t exist at Brown. They certainly do but not nearly to the same extent.</p>

<p>So, trying not to be judgmental --whats more important to you? Going to school with the stars? Or getting the best possible education?</p>

<p>

Wait, what stars even go to Brown? Like seriously, Emma Watson is the only one I know of. All the others all go to Columbia and NYU afaik.
Still, I’d totally rather go to school with the stars. :]]]]]</p>

<p>Unless my intended major was biomedical engineering. OP you should definitely favor Johns Hopkins. Also, I know a couple people at JHU myself and they say it’s a study hard, party hard school. It’s a quite social campus with awesome parties. If it’s a question of where you plan to ED, I’d recommend JHU for you. Also, there’s the added benefit of JHU’s ED being significantly higher than their regular decision and also higher than Brown’s, so your chances of acceptance will be better applying ED to Hop…</p>

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<p>OMG OMG OMG <em>Hyperventilation</em> OMG OMG OMG </p>

<p>JKjkjk
To me, it’s good publicity for Brown watch as the applications skyrocket next year.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/704679-20-colleges-lowest-acceptance-rates-class-2013-a-6.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/704679-20-colleges-lowest-acceptance-rates-class-2013-a-6.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Harvard – 7% – 29112
Yale – 7.5% – 26000
Stanford – 7.6% – 30428
Princeton – 9.79% – 21964
Columbia – 9.82% – 24428
MIT – 10.2% – 15661
Brown – 10.8% – 24988
Dartmouth – 12% – 18130
Amherst – 15% – 7667
Caltech – 15.2% – 4400
Claremont McKenna College – 15.7% – 4276
Pomona – 15.7% – 6149
Duke University – 17%
UPenn – 17.11% – 22939
Swarthmore – 17.2% – 5574
Bowdoin College – 18.6% – 5,940
Georgetown University - 18.7%
Vanderbilt University – 18.9% – 19350
Cornell – 19.1% – 34381
Pitzer – 20.2% – 4079
Williams College – 20.6% – 6017
UC-Berkeley – 21.6% – 48640
UCLA – 21.73 – 55,676
Wesleyan – 21.9% – 10068
Middlebury – 22% – 6904
Rice – 22.26% – 11,172
Johns Hopkins – 24.8 – 16,119
Chicago – 26.8 – 13,600
Northwestern – 27.5% – 25,000
Emory – 28.8% – 15,611</p>

<p>i wonder why it’s so hard to get into brown? is it just a numbers thing with 25K apps? is it the ivy league sports name that attracts extra attention? is it the no grades thing? it’s academically weaker than a lot of schools with higher admissions rate on that list, so im guessing there is something else pretty compelling about brown…?</p>

<p>You’d be surprised at the number of prospective students that I’ve met that apply to all of the Ivy League schools just because they’re Ivy League schools. They have no idea that the group is an athletic conference, nor do they care or realize that the schools are quite different from one another. Not that they’re not great schools - even without the Ivy League title, they’d still be top ranked and selective because of their academic history and research; it’s just that I think a lot of people apply without doing any research at all, just because of the name.</p>

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<p>I agree with tanman, there are like thousands of people that apply because they want to look cool applying to a Ivy school even if they know they might not get in. They want to get accepted and be able to “brag” about it. It’s all like marketing. So there are 4 schools that give prestige to the Ivy League name (Havard, Princeton, Yale, UPenn (Wharton, Med school and their engineering)), and the other Ivies gets publicity so more people apply even though it isn’t a fit or they know that they won’t get in. A lot of unqualified applicants applied so that’s why it is so low. This actually applies to all top schools, Ivies just gets more.</p>

<p>If you compare the numbers for Brown and Hopkins, the number of applicants per enrollment spot are actually quite comparable (Brown gets more applications but also has a larger undergraduate population). The big difference which results in Brown’s greater selectivity is yield–a higher proportion of students offered admission to Brown accept the offer as compared to Hopkins. Why is that?</p>

<p>I think there are three major reasons: 1) the Ivy cache; We can say it until we’re blue in the face that the Ivy League is basically a sports conference of mediocre Division I schools but the fact is, like it or not, that membership in the Ivy League confers a significant marketing advantage. Perception is reality; 2) Hopkins has a reputation, deserved or not, of being academically difficult, competitive, cutthroat, and lacking social life. Brown has a reputation of being a very chill place with few if any requirements. Both of these stereotypes are way overblown but, for many 17 year old high school students (i.e., the market) it doesn’t matter. Perception is reality. 3) Brown has the reputation of being in a safe, cool place (Providence) and Hopkins has the reputation of being in the Ghetto. Again, these reputations are very inaccurate (e.g., if you study the crime statistics, the Brown campus is a far more dangerous place than Hopkins) but it doesn’t matter–perception is reality. </p>

<p>Hopkins wins out against Brown in head to head competition only with students who have quality of education as their primary criteria in choosing a college, or who take the time to visit both schools, investigate the myths, and who correctly conclude that that the reputations and myths are inaccurate.</p>

<p>Its very hard to change a long-standing reputation. Part of the problem is the Hopkins’ students help perpetuate the myths by boasting about how hard Hopkins is, how hard people work, and how much easier students at other schools have it. This is natural and understandable, but problematic. Brown students also boast that they can avoid having grades at all. While there is a thread of truth in all of these boasts, much of it is also self delusional. Yes, you can choose to avoid grades at Brown but if you do, you will never be admitted to graduate or professional school so the option is not a realistic one for most people. Yes, Hopkins students work hard but most also play hard; and guess what, a lot of Brown students work hard too. I can tell you that students from Brown who go on to top graduate and professional schools work their butts off. </p>

<p>The truth is that Brown and Hopkins attract many of the same type of students–and their personalities don’t change because of the school they ultimately go to. While cultural difference definitely exists between the too schools, the student bodies are not all that different.</p>

<p>What bugs me is that, on a comparative basis, Hopkins’ faculty and academic facilities far surpass Brown’s so, if applicants were logical as opposed to emotional, Hopkins would win the head-to-head competition most of the time. But, as I said, perception is reality.</p>

<p>

This is true. I recently ranked universities in such a way. Brown and Hopkins came in #8 and #12, respectively.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062735245-post11.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062735245-post11.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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I’m not sure I trust JHU’s crime statistics. For example, there was an off-campus murder in 2005 that was not reported in the OPE statistics. </p>

<p>

Nonsense. In the last NRC report, Hopkins came in #20 in non-zero scores. Brown came in #25. There is very little difference at the undergraduate level, and the advantages of a completely open curriculum, extremely high grade inflation, Providence (nicer than Baltimore, albeit smaller), and better financial aid easily outweigh any supposed academic differences.</p>

<p>

I’d say it depends a lot on what you plan to do with your degree. If you actually plan to practice engineering after getting your BS, then Hopkins may be the better option. If you plan to go into something else (e.g. medical school) or to get a MS/MEM, then Brown is a perfectly reasonable option.</p>

<p>Note: JHU BME is a lot tougher and will hurt your GPA when you compare it to Brown’s</p>

<p>^And every graduate and professional school is aware of that.</p>

<p>Wait the OP is not going to med school? Oh I just noticed that. On that note, please disregard that post. If the OP is going to grad school, then he/she should know about this.</p>

<p>Sorry about my misunderstanding of this. I apologize.</p>

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<p>lol ok i just looked at these rankings … they are from 1995. are all the nrc rankings from 1995…in that case isnt nrc useless until the new rankings come out sometime between now and september?</p>

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<p>ahhh I made another mistake, I meant to say med school</p>