Bright, but very social kid - where to go?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I have been lurking for a while, and I am the mom of a very bright underachiever. He has taken the PSATs and will probably end up with a 1450 to 1475 SAT, without the writing section. He is now in a small noncompetitive high school - he has taken the hardest courses offered, even skipping a year of Global history (got a 100 on the Regents without the second year) and taking AP US History as a 10th grader (and he got a 5 on it) Having said that, his average has gone from a 94 in major subjects in 9th grade, to an 89 this year.</p>

<p>His average may have gone down because he loves to socialize, plays 3 sports, is on an Quiz Bowl team that has gone to the Nationals for the second year in a row (from a little HS with 400 kids), is on a ski team that practices every Sat and Sun from November to April and every holiday (even though he is NOT a good ski racer, he still loves it) and has about 10 other activities. It also may be because he is with lots of kids who are not motivated, and he goes with the flow.</p>

<p>So what kind of school is best for him? A reach, one that matches his SATs where the kids work really hard? He is a passionate learner, loves history and Chemistry, will talk all day to anyone about WWII, or the periodic table, but will do his homework on his own time, so is he better at a little less competitive environment, where he is the big cheese but the conversation/intellectual stimulation is not as good? Has he not lived up to his potential because no one else does, or because he is bored? (As Calmom responded on another thread, there is not really any excuse, even if bored, but I am talking about a school atmosphere where neither students, or even many teachers, are intellectually engaged. There is very little going on intellectually after-school, or culturally in the area either, and that is exactly how most of the staff likes it.) When my son has a teacher who is intellectually engaged, he loves it and does very well, to the point that teachers have told me he is the most interested student they have had in 10 to 20 years of teaching here. </p>

<p>So what kind of school should a bright, but very social, student go to? IF he were to get into a top 20 LAC (which I doubt,) is the regimen there going to be more than he wants? I have heard the work load at Williams/Wesleyan is very tough. But if he goes to a LAC further down the ladder (top 50 to 75,) are there lots of engaged students, who are looking for conversation and intellectual stimulation?</p>

<p>Please excuse any errors I may have made in my observations. We are just beginning our college search, visited about 8 schools but still learning, so any advice is more than welcome. Thanks!</p>

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<p>I'd conduct a search with a strong eye on the "Student Activities" section of each college's website. He'll be happy if there are EC's at his college. Some of these kids do re-route more into academics once the get into college, and I know the environment you're describing. </p>

<p>One piece of advice you didn't ask for (welcome to CC): In our house, "boring" was the "B" word and if ever uttered, I'd stare them down and say, "Oh, so you're bored? What WILL you do to solve that?" My message: if you're bored, it's YOUR problem" (not mine, not the teachers'...) and I won't jump through hoops when you utter that word. Even though, in fact, I understand that kids need stimulating environments, but there gets to be an age when they need to take over the responsibility of finding ways to make their own learning more interesting rather than bellyaching about the teachers. There's extra reading, TV shows from History Channel that are even cool, or talks around the dinner table to plow into a theme the teacher presented dully but you might make sparkle. (History class: life in the 80's? Your chance to tell about anything you remember from those days. Chemistry is dull? Tough. Please cook us all dinner and we'll talk about what happened chemically during the process and we promise to make it funny, etc.)</p>

<p>My rant but something I feel strongly about these days.</p>

<p>As you mentioned, it's quite a stretch to go from those PSAT results to considering WIliams and Wesleyan. The LAC's down the ladder a bit would be fun IF there are EC's that appeal, and this child of yours sounds like a wonderful fun person. It's a question of choosing friends well.</p>

<p>I always point out when my kids are choosing well ("catch them being good") in h.s. and say so explicitly, "You make SUCH good choices, that'll stand you in good stead in college..." He could either find stimulating friends in EC's and many peers in match classes, OR he could fritter away his time with social animals, too. That's why it's a good line of discussion to begin now; support his "right to choose" friends well. My S is hardwired that way, too, so I understand. He has that "social intelligence" that carries him into the company of worthwhile friends. Kids learn a lot from their friends, good and bad, so that's as important a theme as the academics, espec for this kid. Talk it up but do so by being POSITIVE at this point. Let him believe in himself that he's an "800" at choosing good friends.</p>

<p>"The most important fact about a person is what they believe about themselves."</p>

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<p>I don't think you can make an accurate prediction of SAT's from PSAT's. We significantly underestimated my S's SAT scores from the PSAT's.</p>

<p>I actually think that there is a large subset of kids who do BETTER as the material gets more challenging and the level of teaching gets more mature. My son did better grade-wise in AP classes than in regular classes, because he was more engaged and because he was motivated to learn the material to hold his own in intellectually stimulating discussions rather than just to regurgitate information on exams.</p>

<p>Forget everything you know about what is a "good" school... the level of competitiveness and respectibility changes by the minute. I personally found the princetonreview.com counselor-o-matic to be helpful to explore what is out there... don't count on it to make perfect matches as it on purpose uses fuzzy logic (an actual form of mathematics and logic)... but I had a lot of fun varying my search criteria and seeing how the results changed.</p>

<p>What my son liked were the course descriptions at some of the more interdisciplinary, more liberal liberal arts colleges... where the courses were titles things like (I'm making this up) "The influence of japanese anime on post world war II US health care policy, from a literary and boolean logic analysis perspectives" versus "health care policy 3.1003 prerequisites: health care policy 3.1002 or 3.1001.5 taken prior to 2004 with permission of instructor, discussion of health care policy."</p>

<p>For socializing, context is important. Schools without frats put everyone on a more equal starting basis, but frats might create more structured social life... sports? clubs? and so on....</p>

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<p>Just to play devil's advocate a bit... is there any particular reason you are limiting the options to LACs at this point, adigal? There are many LAC advocates on this board, and while such schools do provide an outstanding education, the smaller environment is certainly not for everyone. Is this a preference your son has expressed already? It would be a shame to foreclose looking at larger - and often more social - schools this early in the game.</p>

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<p>Places such as Antioch and Hampshire popped into my mind...and if Hampshire is of interest, it's a small school within a FIve COllege Consortium...the best of both worlds.</p>

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<p>Thank you, paying3, for your information and advice. I do agree that there is no excuse to be bored; as a disclaimer, I am a teacher for 12th grade and AP, so I know that it is up to the kids to find a way to get through the boredom, as every school, and every job, has some boredom. He has been passionate about history since he was a kid - History Channel was and is his favorite TV show, WWII his particular obsession, and we are a very verbal family, sit around the dinner table talking and laughing, but he does spend his days in an environment that is not conducive to ambition in school and he just goes with the flow. Very, very social environment and kid, so he does want a tight-knit family feel to a school. </p>

<p>I will have him check out Antioch and Hampshire. Also, any knowledge of Connecticut College, Bates or Wheaton in Mass? The first two seem hard to get into, but like fun schools, and Wheaton seems like a good school, too. </p>

<p>Again, many thanks,</p>

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<p>Hey, thanks! I didn't know about the princeton review counselor-o-matic! We will check it out. </p>

<p>And I think you are correct in your belief that some kids do better as the material gets harder. I think my son is one of those kids. Thanks again,</p>

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<p>Hi,
My son wants a small, family-type atmosphere, and I really want to stay away from schools that have a lot of frats and frat parties. Plus, I think the exclusionary aspect of frats would bother him - he is very inclusive and always looks out for the kid that no one else can stand, so that has been a consideration, and it seems that most small schools with no frats are the LACs in our area (the northeast)</p>

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<p>Whitman in Washington</p>

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<p>My best friend's daughter LOVES Reed. Talk about someone who loves learning just for the sake of learning and an atmosphere where people care about each other and accept each other!</p>

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<p>I doubt he would find the workload at either Williams or Wesleyan a particular problem - these are not particularly tough places once one is in. (Of course, there is that! ;))</p>

<p>If there isn't much intellectually or culturally going on his area, why not an urban school that is hopping with activity? (your list is full of rural and semi-rural LACs, and I don't quite know why?)</p>

<p>"What my son liked were the course descriptions at some of the more interdisciplinary, more liberal liberal arts colleges... where the courses were titles things like (I'm making this up) "The influence of japanese anime on post world war II US health care policy, from a literary and boolean logic analysis perspectives"</p>

<p>You'll find tons more courses like that a larger private, or even state school. (He might love Evergreen - the atmosphere sounds perfect for him.) If it must be a LAC, have you looked at Macalester or Pitzer?</p>

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<p>Carleton? The one school I most wish my son would have considered:).</p>

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<p>One school you might want to consider is Bard. It's small, but the kids are engaged and love learning, and it also has a slew of Division III sports teams and intramurals and clubs. It's in a great location about 2 hours north of NYC, beautiful spot, no frats and very family-type atmosphere.</p>

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<p>I would be very wary of colleges like Hampshire. As I posted in the other thread, sometimes kids rise to the challenge, sometimes they don't. My own son hates arbitrary rules, busywork assignments, anything that he has to do that he doesn't feel he can learn from..... and he will argue incessantly to try to get around doing whatever it is he doesn't want to do. </p>

<p>But I figured out when he was a kid and saw again in college that he absolutely needs external structure. He will argue and gripe about it ... but he needs it. (I should have known that, of course, having raised him). So what my son needed was a college that had a fairly structured curriculum, but some flexibility such as the ability to seek waiver or substitutions of some requirements. Unfortunately, for his first college he chose one that was very loosely structured, with too many classes that were grade on a single final or end of term paper -- and he would procrastinate with it all and then be unable to dig himself out of the mess at the end. He did great in the courses with regular graded assignments, like the lab science or his language classes. </p>

<p>If your kid has any tendency at all to procrastinate, I would be very wary of a college with too much freedom in its philosophy or approach. From what you say about his social orientation, that could be a big issue -- it's just too easy to get distracted. </p>

<p>The kids who do well with the more open-ended curriculum are those who are very self directed with a clear idea of what they want to do with their education. If you look at reported graduation rates for schools like Hampshire or Antioch, you will see that it is not so good. That's because some kids kind of drift off at a certain point; suddenly their interests take them to a place that's not on campus any more... and they go off somewhere else and don't come back. </p>

<p>A college like Reed would be fine if he's up to doing the work. Reed has a good combination of heavy structure on the academic side with an anything goes, unfettered freedom attitude on the personal/social side of things. </p>

<p>One more comment -- like your son, mine wanted a small college with the close-knit feel of his high school -- and I think he really did enjoy his first year. But he just outgrew the place and was very antsy by the end of his second year.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
What my son liked were the course descriptions at some of the more interdisciplinary, more liberal liberal arts colleges... where the courses were titles things like (I'm making this up) "The influence of japanese anime on post world war II US health care policy, from a literary and boolean logic analysis perspectives

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh yeah.</p>

<p>THOSE are the courses that are a total bear to transfer. </p>

<p>Just try convincing the administrators at the transfer school that the course should count toward the mandatory freshman writing class, because you had to write 6 papers for the class (Nope, it's not called "English") -- or that it should count toward the quantitative reasoning requirement (boolean logic, right? Nope, its not called math). How about using it to fulfill a requirement towards your desired history major? (Nope... we don't have any wacky courses like that).</p>

<p>I know it sounds kind of defeatist to select a college based on how well its courses will transfer ... but with a kid who seems hard to fit, I think realistically you have to look at the possibility that it wont work out and that there will be a 2nd school down the line. And the wonkier the curriculum and course titles at school #1, the bigger the problem getting credit at school #2.</p>

16

<p>CalMom makes some good points. Too much freedom could sink him.</p>

<p>Also have a really huge reality-check talk about the SAT scores andhow much they count. It'll limit his choices, even as a super capable kid if he doesn't buy into why he'll need to envision himself, this spring, summer and fall, knuckling down to prepare well for his SAT.s Show him some research, stand on your head, whatever, but it WILL increase his chances to perform to his very best abilitiy on those tests. Not to ruin his life, but certainly to plan to attack, really attack those prep books. For bright kids, I THINK the prep books work better than the courses but I've never sent a kid to an SAT prep course, so i don't really know.</p>

<p>It's good that you're a 12th grade teacher; maybe work with him and chunk up those prep books with dates to accomplish each section. Sounds like he could be a character that waits til 3 weeks before SAT's to begin, and he's got a way up to go.
To me, with your family and verbal dinners (YAY!) he's got the background for better CR scores but needs to stuedy the types of questions and strategies to improve those test results. I think he's underachieving on his SAT's and so as a bright light, here's his chance to really improve outside of the school climate. </p>

<p>Is he discontent with the friendship circle and opportunities it offers? you don't want to criticize his friends, and yet you're saying to him, those SAT's are a ladder UP AND OUT. Figure out if it's bothering him as much as you that his environment is dull intellectually, since that'll help push the messages onto him and off of you. How do you keep politics and critiques of your school out of dinner conversation? That'd be hard for me to do...but it might undercut his drive if he hears too much of how bad the school system is that YOU work in but he must excel within... so much to consider. Keep the dinner talk, really, people are discovering that's the mssing piece of American culture today and hurts kids on their academics where critical thinking must be demonstrated. Cheers to you for caring and researching in good time, in advance.</p>

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<p>I still don't see why all those rural LACs.</p>

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<p>Adigal, paying3tuitions --- clarification regarding SATs?</p>

<p>Adigal, were you saying that you predict SAT scores of 1450-1475/ out of 1600? If that's what you meant, there's nothing shoddy about those scores, whatsoever.</p>

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<p>Well Mini, the kid likes to ski. It will be more convenient if the campus is out of the city and close to skiing. </p>

<p>Here's an idea: Colorado College -- one course at a time, each course is 3 weeks long, 5 full days a week, and then you take a break and go skiing. (I might have the details wrong, but that's the general idea).</p>

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<p>"Well Mini, the kid likes to ski. It will be more convenient if the campus is out of the city and close to skiing."</p>

<p>Could just as well be in the city: University of Vermont, University of Denver, Bates (well, hardly city, but), etc. From what I hear described, much better match for a state university with lots of things to choose from - perhaps an honors college - or one in a culturally rich big city.</p>