Brown is the best place to be a pre-med

<p>Since I’ve been in medical school (I’m a 2nd year MD/PhD student at a top 20 school) I have been spending a lot of time on the CC pre-med forum giving my two cents, and it blows my mind how much better and different the pre-med experience was at Brown than the average elite school.</p>

<p>I did not experience cut throat competition, I did not experience curves where I dreaded the performance of my far more brilliant than me classmates, I did not experience the frenzy of making sure resumes were in tip top shape. Am I saying the school is completely 100% devoid of the stereotypical pre-med, no, but it’s just such a minority and goes counter to Brown’s ethos that I sometimes feel like I come from a different planet than most of the posters on there.</p>

<p>I’ve posted on here that Dean Simmons kind of sucks with regard to advising, but I’ve heard that things have changed (e.g. he’s no longer the pre-law advisor too), and ultimately he’s good enough that with a little bit of outside help, it’s 100000000% worth dealing with it to get to be at Brown for undergrad.</p>

<p>I know it’s a few months away from decision making time but know that Brown is unique and really creates a great environment for anyone going pre-med. Do not be swayed by rumors of “misfit ivy,” or “easy ivy,” or “no +/- looks bad for med school,” it’s just not true. I and my classmates from Brown all LOVED our time at Brown, and literally the only other school that has such fervent admirers is Duke. Don’t get me wrong, I love med school too, but it’s sad to hear kids from other ivies mention how much better med school is than undergrad. There is so much more work and so much less time to do things that I honestly can’t imagine how much different Brown would have had to have been to be less enjoyable than my life is currently.</p>

<p>Thanks for this post “from the other side”. I think I will pass it on to 3 premeds currently at Brown I know to “cheer them up” a bit and remind them to be enjoying their time there!</p>

<p>BUMPing this thread now that the decisions are out.</p>

<p>Thanks for your message. it is just the sort of thing my S needs to know. He was just accepted to Brown, and plans to be pre-med.</p>

<p>Thanks. The Brown website posted an 81% acceptance rate to med school. Is this accurate, ie… based on all premeds who applied, or does Brown limit the applicants by refusing to write a Committe letter for students who didn’t meet certain GPA or MCAT scores, thereby artificially inflating the percentage?
[Medical</a> Admission Data Snapshot](<a href=“WELCOME TO HEALTH CAREERS ADVISING | Health Careers Advising”>WELCOME TO HEALTH CAREERS ADVISING | Health Careers Advising)</p>

<p>From my discussions with current med students the 81% is in fact accurate, keeping in mind the PLME students as well. In all honesty there is a bit of artificial inflation due to the letter refusals (for those reasons and more), but it’s not a travesty by any means.</p>

<p>PLME is not counted in those stats for obvious reasons. I will admit that Dean Simmons sucks as an advisor. I’m probably the worst person to talk about him because I am MD/PhD which meant that he really knew nothing about what I needed to be doing (there are fewer than 5 MD/PhD applicants from brown per year) and I came from an elite private school where I had essentially unlimited personal time with an extremely well known/respected college counselor.</p>

<p>Maybe the process is too random to predict, but I feel that Simmons was completely wrong in gauging where I could get in. He told me not to worry too much about doing research and also said that with 1.5 years of research experience at the time I submitted my AMCAS that I would be competitive at any school in the country. As an MD applicant, I think he would have been spot on, but as an MD/PhD, 1.5 years total in 2 labs of research is below the standard range (2-3 no more than 2 labs) for kids applying to the tippy top schools.</p>

<p>He is a great application coordinator who will give you a good timeline and make sure all your stuff goes out on time, but for actual advice, it’s probably best to look elsewhere and what advice he gives, if sought out, is definitely critical. I have heard some horror stories about him bringing people to tears because he’ll flat out tell you you’re not good enough if he thinks so but I’ve never heard of him actually refusing to do a committee letter. </p>

<p>As I alluded to in my original post, you’re going to be at Brown for 4 years but you only have to deal with him/the part of your application that really needs advice for maybe 4 months total (once you pick your schools and fill out your apps, you really don’t need him except maybe again to decide on which school to go to). You can so easily find what you need without him that knowing what I know now, I would DEFINITELY still go to Brown, and probably would have been better off since I would have known from the start how to handle him. Also, who knows, you may not end up pre-med in the end and then you’ll at least have gone to the greatest school in the country.</p>

<p>Like everything at Brown, the kids who are proactive and seek things out are the most successful. Think about it: even your curriculum isn’t handed to you.</p>

<p>i<em>wanna</em>be_Brown, first, I’d like to thank you for the thorough and thoughtful posts you have made about premed at Brown. My son was just accepted and wants to go premed with a neuroscience major, and I have found your posts very encouraging and helpful.</p>

<p>Can you please clarify what you mean by “1.5 year total in 2 labs of research” and “2-3 no more than 2 labs?” Is this referring to lab courses and research as discrete things? Given that the open curriculum allows the kids to make their own choices, I want to make sure my son understands how much research and lab work he’s going to need in order to get into a top medical program if he applies MD or MD/PhD. Thanks.</p>

<p>Congratulations to your son! The Neuroscience program at Brown is exceptional (although I did regular Biology, so don’t ask me anything specific about it).</p>

<p>Sorry for the confusion, I am referring to extracurricular research experience, not course work. I had 2 summers and a school year by the time I applied. One summer in one lab, summer + school year in another.</p>

<p>There is no actual strict requirement. Every school will just say that they value research experience. There is no difference in curriculum requirements, I believe, between MD and MD/PhD. In my experience, most MD/PhD students spent 2-3 school years in either one lab the entire time, or no more than 2 labs (i.e. you shouldn’t be constantly bouncing around from lab to lab, it shows a lack of commitment). Simmons has built a nice little website that does a very good job of answering all the standard pre-med questions and setting you up with the foundation to be successful. [Health</a> Careers Advising](<a href=“http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Dean_of_the_College/hco/]Health”>WELCOME TO HEALTH CAREERS ADVISING | Health Careers Advising)</p>

<p>In other words, to go straight out of undergrad, your son should probably be getting involved in extracurricular research either the summer after freshman year or during his sophomore year. I would venture that MD/PhD students are more likely than MD students to take 1-2 years off after undergrad to help reach these goals. I took one on my own volition, not because Simmons pushed me. Simmons would have let me apply with just 2 summers of research to my name but I do remember him telling me that the top schools were unlikely and I was going to be taking my MCAT in August of my application cycle which he said wasn’t ideal, but meant I had to apply without really knowing what schools were in my range. It’s rare to see more time off than that since the schooling is so long that people usually don’t want to sign up for 8 years of school, 3-7 years of residency, and potentially fellowship training if they’re already 25.</p>

<p>Many of my MD classmates never did research, many of them just did a couple summers, some did enough to rival us (MD/PhDs) but usually those people also took time off between college and med school. It will also depend whether you’re applying to a research oriented school or not.</p>

<p>Thanks, that’s very helpful. I know what you mean about how long the process takes. I think my brother, a pediatric anesthesiologist, didn’t finish his fellowship until he was about 34, and went to med school straight from undergrad.</p>

<p>My son is v excited to go to Brown. He put the sticker on his car as soon as it showed up from the admissions office.</p>

<p>Would you say that your experience as a premed at Brown would translate to PLME students as well?</p>

<p>“Brown is the best place to be a pre-med, Pre-Law or Pre-Finance …”</p>

<p>When i see the title or information, it reminds me of someone is good at something, but just work for other people. Why would Brown want to be a top feeder to other top professional schools? can this be proud of? or is an academic achievement???</p>

<p>If this message(Harvard/Princeton is best place for premed/pre-law/pre-finance) appear on Harvard or Princeton forum (BTW, i don’t see this or similar message appear on their forum), what that mean? That means Harvard/Princeton is generating students for other pro schools (including its own). Will this weaken its alumni royalty??? good or bad???</p>

<p>Generating students for other schools is not something can be proud of, it is not an academic achievement either, it is only trying to help the students to find another significant alma mater. Good for fund-raising???</p>

<p>@BigFire… Why not? Many students see undergrad as the opportunity to “generate students for other schools” in your words, meaning they see it as the stepping stone to go to an elite graduate or professional school. It is good if a student feels as though their experience was very good, and although the premise of Brown being “best” is of course entirely subjective, the personal examples of the OP are extremely detailed and informative.</p>

<p>BigFire,</p>

<p>Like moonman676 said, you have missed the point. My friends in med school from other schools that did not enjoy undergrad are going to be far, far, less likely to donate to their undergrads than my med school classmates from Brown or Duke for whom there is a palpable, fervent, and unmatched adoration for our undergraduate homes. It doesn’t really matter what field you go into, if you enjoyed your time at undergrad and are successful and feel that played a positive role in your success, you’re going to donate.</p>

<p>For example, we had a test that was going to make it difficult to attend Campus Dance last year, and all the Brown alumni banded together and convinced the prof to offer us an alternate (earlier) test time so that we could be done in time to go to Campus Dance. I can’t think of anyone else in my med school class who did anything remotely close to that in terms of school spirit. As my friends prep for 3rd year, they’re already wondering how they can finagle memorial day weekend off so that they can go next year too. You’re going to tell me we don’t donate because we identify with our Med School too much? You’ve got to be joking.</p>

<p>VouloirPouvoir,</p>

<p>Not sure I fully understand your question. Since PLMEs don’t do apps they don’t deal with Simmons. If you mean the stuff I talked about in my first post then yes, it applies since they were in the same classes as me. </p>

<p>PLMEs as people span the whole spectrum. Some PLMEs do only the bare minimum pre-med stuff since they major in other things (and many people will forget they are PLMEs) and some are even more studious than the average pre-med. PLMEs also have extra advisors and stuff, but I don’t know the details, maybe bruno14 or one of the other current PLMEs will notice this and comment.</p>

<p>There are some pre-meds who are jealous of PLMEs (I only was during my applications, never during school), but most people hide it because it is what it is, and ultimately many pre-meds didn’t actually want to do PLME and just have to remember that.</p>

<p>@i<em>wanna</em>be_Brown, Did Brown always claim itself as the “happiest” student in the nation for years? Then why its endowment size is the lowest among Ivies. When people attend another school after graduate his heart goes with it for some extent, there is no doubt about it. When donation comes he may split his donation apart, or at worst make entire donation to his highest earning degree school. Maybe you and your friends are the exception. </p>

<p>When you have top Law, business or medical school in hand, will you mention your undergraduate??? My answer is less. I know many people look Brown as a step-stone to another top school, that’s nothing wrong, but i just feel uncomfortable on its endowment size.</p>

<p>Hope i don’t offend anyone here.</p>

<p>Details for PLME: you have a separate advisor. Besides that, we do fulfill many of the same pre-med requirements, and many PLMEs do concentrate in the sciences, just like pre-meds. We don’t deal with Dean Simmons, since we’re not applying to medical school.</p>

<p>I would say that there is some jealousy of PLMEs, but most of it is directed at the minority of PLME students who seem to “slack off” during their time at Brown by not making the most of their opportunities. Luckily, the PLME advising deans know who those people are - I promise it’s a very small number. My significant other is a bit jealous/bitter at me right now, but that’s because he/she is in the middle of the med school process him/herself :)</p>

<p>BigFire,</p>

<p>The “happiest student” tag came from Princeton Review, although I do see your point.</p>

<p>I was under the impression that Brown students are less likely to pursue higher paying careers (finance, business) compared to our peer schools. People with less money donate less. I do wonder what the percentage of alumni donating money to the school are and how that number compares to our peer schools. Similarly, if I understand the financial structure of the university properly (which I very much admit I might not): donations only to the general fund count towards the endowment. For example I only donate to my athletic team, and thus not the school’s general endowment.</p>

<p>Big Fire, there are lots of things the lead to one university’s endowment being bigger than another’s, but you should ask yourself how that’s relevant to a given student’s goals. While I am no expert on the subject, I strongly suspect that per capita endowment size is a relatively minor factor for goals such as getting into a top tier medical school. My brother went to small liberal arts college that has had great success for many years getting students into top medical schools; that college does not have a huge endowment by Ivy League standards.</p>

<p>i<em>wanna</em>be_Brown: I am not expert in anything, like you said poor alumni/people donate less, that’s true. Are we going to remain at the poorest Ivy? Something must be changed, i just don’t know what direction we should go, establish more graduate programs (such as MBA/Finance …)? or concentrate more on finance program?, or increase medical school size? … anyway, “enhance steady, long term money-raising base is necessary”. Let big shot figure out.</p>

<p>Premedrunnerdad: Students can go to top tier medical (or any top pro/graduate) school is a good thing, like i posted before, if we keep producing students to other top schools, not our own (we don’t have Law school, Business school, and Med school is relatively young, graduate school is small compare to peers) then our fund-raising base/alumni will not increase as much/many as other peer schools. That eventually hurt our endowment. I have heard smaller endowment is fine, but i would say bigger endowment is much better. ((simply say, i don’t want to be poor)). You have more money, you can think of millions ways to make the school better and strong, or even make students more successful. </p>

<p>Don’t blame or ask me why, how or what should we do. Again, i only see this situation faced Brown and bring it up. Hope i don’t bother anybody.</p>

<p>BigFire,</p>

<p>I understand the desire to increase the endowment, but to say that the sentiments in my post, and the fact that people at Harvard don’t feel the same way about their school means that these sentiments are the reason that we have a small endowment is ludicrous. We may be the poorest ivy but we still have an endowment larger than 99% of schools in the country. Princeton and Dartmouth are the only Ivies like us in terms of the university college field. I don’t know how to increase endowment either but know I don’t want it to be by changing the nature of the school. If Brown wants to create an MBA program for other reasons, that’s fine, but to create an MBA program largely to create wealthy donors is a little disgusting in my opinion.</p>