Brown or UMich -- help with decision

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
61

<p>Lesdiablesbleus</p>

<p>“I am basing my perspective on the opinions of partners of several major Chicago/NYC law firms and individual who sits on the Michigan Law School admissions committee. You are twisting my words Alex. I was talking about the top 6 law schools, not the top 7. The top 6 law schools in the country are Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU and Chicago in that order. In fact, the acronym HYSNCC is well known among law school students and faculty alike just like the acronym HYPSM is well known among the undergraduate masses.”</p>

<p>Really? Fascinating. Only, according to a survey on top Law schools based on partners at the top Law firms in the country, Michigan Law was rated among the top 5. Wow, what do you know, that is similar to the USNWR rating. </p>

<p>“USNews has very little credibility when it comes to accurately pinpointing the exact prestige of an university and is rather best used to give someone a very general idea of where a certain school stands. I wouldn’t put much stock into these PA and recruiter scores if I were you. Statistics can’t measure something as qualitative as prestige.”</p>

<p>Not really. The USNWR does onlyone thing right, and that is collect opinions of top faculty and recruiters.</p>

62

<p>"Your analysis is a little off here Alex. Almost ALL of the humanities/social sciences majors in LSA are pre-law and Michigan has more kids apply to the top law schools than any other school besides Cal. These are all facts that are verifiable via the LSDAS.</p>

<p>Based on the data that I’ve seen, a higher proportion of Brown students do apply to law school, but there are definitely more highly qualified applicants to the top law schools from Brown than there are at Michigan.</p>

<p>Brown students score much higher on the LSAT than Michigan students due to receiving a superior college education and being better candidates coming out of high school.</p>

<p>Average Brown LSAT: 163
Average University of Michigan LSAT: 158
(LSDAS)</p>

<p>This is a STAGGERING difference."</p>

<p>Again, this does not prove much, other than the fact that at Michigan, a more diverse group of students wish to study Law. That’s something I admire about schools like Michigan. Its students pursue their dreams, regardless of whether they can get into a top (or any for that matter) graduate program. At Michigan, it is not uncommon for a student with a 2.5-2.9 GPA to take the MCAT or LSAT and apply to Medical school or Law school. That is not the case at many private universities, where the career office will “discourage” students who have lower stats from applying. WUSTL and Johns Hopkins are two notable exceptions to that rule, but the majority of private universities are notorious for that practice. They want to be able to brag about a 90% Law school placement rate or an 80% medical school placement rate.</p>

63

<p>"This is an absolutely ridiculous statement. At the grad school level, no one settles for a lower ranked institution. It is well worth it to pay six figures more to attend Harvard than Michigan because you are basically guaranteed a 200k + job fresh out of law school that will make paying your loans back a cinch. There are few things in life that guarantee success but going to HYS law school does. The top new New York City law firms pay fresh law grads upwards of $300,000 a year.</p>

<p>Michigan is a great law school but it’s no Harvard or Yale Law. I am willing to bet the farm that the number of kids who choose Michigan Law over HYS Law are in the single digits and more likely 1 or 2.</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is that essentially no Michigan students have a shot at Harvard or Yale Law School barring a few exceptions. While at Brown, the exceptional students do stand a solid chance."</p>

<p>And yet, there is no difference in the admissions stats between Michigan and Penn undergrads applying to Harvard and Yale law. I guess Brown is unique! </p>

<p>At any rate, like I said, many qualified Michigan students do not apply to Harvard and Yale. I knew dozens of 3.9-4.0 students at Michigan who had over 175 on the LSAT and none of them applied to Harvard or Yale law. They had a lot of family in the midwest, their girlfriend/boyfriend was still in college and they applied andeventually matriculated in Midwestern Law schools like Chicago, Michigan and Northwestern.</p>

64

<p>Alexandre, you are the best. Keep up the good work. Defend Michigan’s name.</p>

<p>Prestige does nothing for you; however, solid career prospects helps. Michigan Law was recently ranked #1 in that field (beating Yale and Harvard). If I was a law student, getting a job would be the most important “ranking” for me. </p>

<p>[Press</a> Release: Best Law and Business Schools](<a href=“http://www.princetonreview.com/press-release-law-business.aspx]Press”>Media Center | The Princeton Review)</p>

<p>In addition, I lost all respect for Brown University when I read about their tremendous grade inflation. At Brown, you pay over 40k, and as long as you can breathe, you can get an A in any class. For most classes at Michigan, you have to earn it, and the competition is fierce.</p>

<p>Most importantly, the question of the OP is Brown vs. Michigan. I know by personal experience Michigan is one of the best “all-around” universities in the world.</p>

<p>By the way lesdiablesbleus- I think your just envious that the Big House can basically fit the entire state of Rhode Island into it’s own stadium.</p>

65

<p>"Unfortunately, this racial integration you imagine happing at Michigan is really nonexistent Alex. Most international students in Michigan often stick in their own ethnic cliques and don’t mix with the regular locals, which is the case in nearly every university.</p>

<p>Most Michiganders have never left the state Alex and their big “cultural experience” is going to Chicago. In contrast, most Ivy League/Duke/Stanford/Chicago DOMESTIC students have extensive international backgrounds and are very familiar with international cities like New York City/London/Paris/Barcelona/etc. They understand what constitutes fine dining and what constitutes high-end accessories.</p>

<p>Most Michigan and state school students in general wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a Patek Philippe and an ESQ Swiss. They also consider Olive Garden and PF Chang “fine dining”. They couldn’t tell the difference between a Pinot Grigio and a Chardonnay for their life. They don’t know any famous international paintings besides the “Mona Lisa” and the “Last Supper”. They probably don’t know a SINGLE famous international opera. Their knowledge of Shakespeare revolves around “Romeo and Juliet”. They know maybe about 5 international capital countries. The list goes on and on…</p>

<p>Cultural education in the United States is severely lacking at the high school and college level. If the OP has the desire to become a more sophisticated and well-rounded person, then Brown is the abundantly clear choice. "</p>

<p>I actually attended Michigan, so I am not stating an opinion but a fact. I befriended many Michigan residents while at Michigan, and most of them were well travelled. Michigan’s student body is extremely cultured and sophisticated. You may be confusing the typical Michigan resident with the typical University of Michigan student or Ann Arbor resident. Those are two different entities altogether. The average resident of any state will lack culture and a global perspective. But the University of Michigan community is extremely sophisticated. </p>

<p>And I would not chose the topic of restaurants if I were; I have eaten at more fine restaurants in my short life than you will in a life time.</p>

66

<p>The ignorant and elitist postings by lesdiablesbleus have finally gotten me to register and post. Sorry I don’t know how to use the boxed quote function. </p>

<p>'The top 6 law schools in the country are Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU and Chicago in that order. In fact, the acronym HYSNCC is well known among law school students and faculty alike."</p>

<p>I am an internationally recognized legal academic, yet I have never heard of this acronym. Nor, I would bet, have 95%-100% of law school professors in the US (or elsewhere). While I would agree that the six law schools you list are among the top 10 reputation-wise in the US, and I was a student at one and had offers to go to the others, they are not all ones I would want to go to. Eg, Chicago law school is known as having a dominant narrow (economic efficiency) focus and its undergraduate school as having a very nerdy undergraduate student body and almost non-existent social scene (Chicago students describe the school as the place where fun went to die). My daughter and many of her friends from her top-tier public high school were heavily recruited to apply to Chicago and would not even consider applying.</p>

<p>“*t would be almost foolish to pay MORE for a Michigan education if you’re from outside the state than for a Brown education.”</p>

<p>My daughter, who grew up in the Chicago area but has traveled to several other continents, chose Michigan undergrad over Brown and other Ivy schools (and U of Chicago) because of Michigan’s unique? combination of excellence in a huge variety of academic areas, diversity, school spirit, unpretentiousness, social environment, location in a great college town, alumni base, and national and international recognition. She found Brown and other Ivies that she visited (but especially Brown) comparatively spiritless, elitist, nerdy and non-diverse, with a much less interesting and attractive college town environment. On the other hand, for what it is worth (not much), we know many students who have gone to Brown and other Ivy schools who have traveled very little. As others have noted, your criteria for being ‘cultured’ are very sad.</p>

<p>“Almost ALL of the humanities/social sciences majors in LSA are pre-law”</p>

<p>??!! What totally ignorant BS.</p>

<p>“It is well worth it to pay six figures more to attend Harvard than Michigan because you are basically guaranteed a 200k + job fresh out of law school that will make paying your loans back a cinch. There are few things in life that guarantee success but going to HYS law school does. The top new New York City law firms pay fresh law grads upwards of $300,000 a year.”</p>

<p>Again, an appalling display of ignorance. Have you looked at any of the online blogs on current law employment? (Almost?) no one is getting 200K, much less 200K, coming out of law school now, or has done soin the past. The top salaries before the bust were around 160K, now they are generally much lower, fewer, and offers are being withdrawn and postponed. Even many Harvard, Yale, etc. law grads are scrambling for jobs. A mere degree from the law schools you list does not even get you a look in the law school academic hiring market; actual performance (published scholarship and individual intelligence as demonstrated in such scholarship and workshop presentations) counts much, much more, regardless of where you went to law school. Where you went does help a lot for interviews for legal practice, but again is outweighed by demonstrated performance and respected faculty recommendations, from whatever good law school, especially a law school in the law firm’s geographic area.</p>

67

<p>

Eh, depends on your specialty. Certainly Yale is head and shoulders above every other law school for legal academia. In fact, about 1 in every 10 law professors attended Yale.</p>

<p>(PR is a rather dubious source, in any case.)</p>

<p>
[Quote=Businesss]
In addition, I lost all respect for Brown University when I read about their tremendous grade inflation. At Brown, you pay over 40k, and as long as you can breathe, you can get an A in any class. For most classes at Michigan, you have to earn it, and the competition is fierce.

[/quote]

With an average GPA of 3.3, Michigan is hardly a bastion of grade deflation.* Brown’s grades are admittedly quite high, however, which is something I’ve remarked upon before.</p>

<p>*In comparison, Michigan’s peer UNC has an average GPA of 3.1.</p>

68

<p>LOL at the 300k salary for fresh law grads… maybe i should have gone to brown so i can make up my imaginary salary.</p>

69

<p>The average mid 50% starting salary ranges from all N14 Law schools are roughly the same. The range peaked at $130,000-$160,000 in 2008, but has dropped to $115,000-$145,000 in 2009. Harvard and Yale Law fresh graduates do not have higher starting salaries than Georgetown or Cornell fresh graduates.</p>

70

<p>Guys, please do not go hating Brown. Lesdiablesbleus is not a Brown student and even if he were, he is not representive of Brown. I have known many Brown students and they are generally a very well grounded and fun bunch, albeit a tad bit idealistic comming in! hehe! Seriously though, Brown and Cornell are my favorite Ivies. One can never go wrong with Brown.</p>

71

<p>Folks - listen to Hadenough. This poster is spot on. </p>

<p>Law graduates from Harvard, Yale, Columbia - you name it - are not getting Biglaw jobs this year or any job opportunities at all. I went to one of these places, and would like to hire law graduates from them. But we are not hiring (or even thinking of hiring at any time in the future). And the entity I work for is enormously profitable. </p>

<p>The law market has changed, and I think permanently. The sad fact is that we have too many law schools and lawyers, and that fees and salaries have become outsized to the point where many (including top flight corporations) are bypassing the need for gold plated legal services. Even disputes (unless they are of the bet your company type) settle differently and more quickly now because of the daunting prospect of legal fees. </p>

<p>Law school debt is thus big elephant in the room - with no 100k jobs, much less 160k jobs available, students simply cannot pay the up to 200k in debt they have accrued to go to law school. This is no exaggeration - there are literally thousands with these kinds of debt levels facing dim or no employment prospects. Consult 3L’s right now at any of the top 14 - i.e., Tier One law schools - except for the very best that have secured judicial clerkships, and a certain other lucky few (patent lawyers are in a bit better shape), there are lots and lots of students with unfathomable debt loads with no paying legal job in sight. Many with job offers have had them deferred to the fall of 2011 (in my view not really an offer to work) and summer programs are being canceled or slashed. </p>

<p>Which brings me to my point. Anyone seeking a top notch education now (even students with parents that have money) must pay far more attention to finances than ever. This makes Michigan, UVa, UC-Berkeley, and UCLA (and a few others) are incredibly, and I mean incredibly, attractive places - both grad and undergrad - for in-state students. Value in this economy - and I don’t see it getting appreciably better for the next five years, means everything, and debt is evil. Michigan is an astounding place because its graduate programs are in almost every field and in those fields most all of them are in the top 10 in the country. An undergrad with a fierce focus on grabbing resources can accomplish a lot. </p>

<p>And the political science majors must go to law school is a thing of the past. For most poli-sci majors, as I relate above, law school does not make economic sense and an entirely new way of looking at things to do - including graduate programs in fields ranging from health administration to education to systems management to environmental studies - to name a few - are courses of study that should now be considered by liberal arts majors rather than law. Heck, given how poor American education is in general, a good student out of Michigan or Brown or whatever is likely going to be able to think and write - a huge advantage in our knowledge based economy. </p>

<p>So if it is an in-state Michigan student, looking at Brown vs. Michigan in virtually any role, grad or undergrad, as fine a school as Brown is, I don’t think it is even a close call. Value will trump everything. For an out of state student, well, the choice is a difficult one and a personal one. One has to ask whether they can work well in each environment, and get the absolute most out of the resources each entity has - a crucial, crucial thing in this economy. </p>

<p>I am concerned about Michigan’s out of state tuition. I know it pays a lot of bills with lots of eager customers, but it is higher than the Ivy League tuition I am paying for my other offspring, and wonder just how long they can keep it at this level. Those excellent students from New York, New Jersey and Northern Illinois might find it easier to stay home.</p>

72

<p>

While I agree with your excellent post, I had two quibbles.</p>

<p>1) That assumes that a student is not receiving financial aid. Brown is admittedly one of the poorer Ivies, but it still has very good financial aid. The financial aid I received at my alma mater made it cheaper than in-state UNC Chapel Hill. Brown is completely free for students making under $60K per year, is loan-free for those making under $100K per year, and has capped loans between $12-20K for everyone else.</p>

<p>Even before the policy went into effect, Brown and Michigan had precisely the same average student debt – $18,500. </p>

<p>2) The OP is an international student, so in the context of this thread it is a moot point.</p>

73

<p>IBClass, for individual students, there is no way of generalizing which university would be cheaper. Generally speaking, with the exception of very few universities, the average indebtedness for undergrads graduating from most top university hovers betwen $15,000 and $25,000. Michigan and Brown both fall in that range.</p>

<p>For international students, both schools will be expensive. However, the OP did not mention finances as a concern. As such, I would say that since the schools are identical in terms of quality and reputation, fit should be the deciding factor. In my opinion, the only way to decide between the two schools is to visit the campuses and see which one feels more “right”. That is how I picked Michigan over other universities I was admitted into.</p>

74

<p>Alex:</p>

<p>according to USNWR, UMich law school is number nine. I’m not saying thats bad, I’m just correcting you.</p>

<p>I understand what you’re saying about all of this, and I would be more than happy to go to UMich law should I decide that’s the path I want to take. but harvard and yale and the other top five are not only high ranked institutions, but also far more prestigious. I don’t have any “proof” besides the fact that when you say “I went to harvard/yale” almost everyone will know what you’re talking about and immediately be impressed. UMich does not get the same reaction, and I dont think you can dispute that.</p>

<p>so, to the person who started the thread, I think it is about person preference and which suits you better as a person. But if you want people to know what you’re talking about when you say where you went to college, go to brown. because, while not as well known as harvard and yale, it is definitely a very well known school. made even more famous by the fact that the open curriculum makes it so that employers know that you can make decisions on your own. the independence gained at brown b/c of the curriculum is very highly regarded.</p>

75

<p>

</p>

<p>OK I’m no expert, but are you implying Brown is more well-known than Michigan?? I believe both schools are pretty equal.</p>

76

<p>

Are you from the Northeast? That view makes more sense if you are.</p>

<p>Brown has practically zero name recognition in the South, at least where I grew up.</p>

77

<p>^^ IMO, Michigan has a better national reputation than Brown. </p>

<p>I aso think both schools are similar academically.</p>

78

<p>why would you go to U of M when you can get into Brown? seriously, it’s an obvious answer</p>

79

<p>“according to USNWR, UMich law school is number nine. I’m not saying thats bad, I’m just correcting you.”</p>

<p>Collegefreak, the USNWR Law rankings are faulty. Michigan Law is generaly considered one of the top 6 or 7 Law schools in the nation. But you aren’t correct me anyway, because I never said that Michigan was ranked among the top 5 in the USNWR. I said Michigan’s reputation among Legal experts (in academe and in the field) generally rates Michigan Law around the top 5. </p>

<p>“I understand what you’re saying about all of this, and I would be more than happy to go to UMich law should I decide that’s the path I want to take. but harvard and yale and the other top five are not only high ranked institutions, but also far more prestigious.”</p>

<p>What atre you talking about? Not university on Earth is “far more prestigious” than Michigan. Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, MIT and maybe Cal and Columbia (and only those 5-7 universities) are more (not “far more”) prestigious overall universities than Michigan. No other university is more prestigious overall. Schools like Chicago, Cornell, Duke, Georgetown, Northwestern, Penn and UVa are not more prestigious universities than Michigan.</p>

<p>“I don’t have any “proof” besides the fact that when you say “I went to harvard/yale” almost everyone will know what you’re talking about and immediately be impressed. UMich does not get the same reaction, and I dont think you can dispute that.”</p>

<p>I can and I do dispute that, and I will. In the legal community, Michigan Law is extremely highly regarded, which is evident from the peer assessment scores it receives. Law is a specialized professional field and Lawyers/Judges and Legal Scholars know which Law programs are the best. </p>

<p>“so, to the person who started the thread, I think it is about person preference and which suits you better as a person. But if you want people to know what you’re talking about when you say where you went to college, go to brown. because, while not as well known as harvard and yale, it is definitely a very well known school. made even more famous by the fact that the open curriculum makes it so that employers know that you can make decisions on your own. the independence gained at brown b/c of the curriculum is very highly regarded.”</p>

<p>If the OP wants name recognition, outside the Northeast (and that’s not even including NYC, where Michigan rules), I would say for undergraduate education, Michigan has a stronger reputation than Brown among the masses and an equal reputation to Brown among the highly educated.</p>

80

<p>Moricarak, I chose Michigan over Brown (and Columbia, Cornell and Penn) for undergrad, and as an OOS student, attending Michigan would have cost almost as much as Brown. </p>

<p>I also attended Cornell for Graduate school and I can say, without a doubt, that I made the right choice when I chose Michigan over those 4 Ivies.</p>