<p>Wow, I come back from studying hard, and I see several dumb posts from members who are clearly ignorant of Midwesterners. </p>
<p>“Brown students are also a lot more sophisticated than Michigan students without a doubt. Most Michigan students are in-staters who have never left the Midwest region and extensively traveled to/visited cities like New York City and Los Angeles, let alone international cities like London, Paris, Barcelona, Toronto, Sydney, Shanghai, Mumbai, Florence, etc. etc.”</p>
<p>That’s funny. I grew up in Michigan, yet I have traveled extensively across the country, including Chicago, NYC, LA, and Toronto. I have lived outside the Midwest too. lesdiablesbleus, your stereotypes of Midwesterners makes you look VERY ignorant. </p>
<p>“Brown will no doubt be a more intellectually satisfying experience as well with the open curriculum I would think. Besides, the Ivy pedigree is hard to beat.”</p>
<p>You think? Although I didn’t attend Michigan, I had a wonderful Midwestern undergraduate experience where I was still able to meet people from other cultures and backgrounds. This year, my graduate cohort at Michigan is nearly 25% international. Fortunately, they don’t share the same (ignorant) views about this university as you do if they chose to matriculate here. Ann Arbor is a very fun college town that offers something for everyone, including an intellectual and international atmosphere (restaurants, events, museums, libraries, etc.). </p>
<p>“I admit I am for various reasons as prejudiced in favor of Brown as Alexandre is in favor of UMich. I hope that I have at least given you reasons for my prejudice. My closest friend is a UMich grad–she loved it there. She also admits that she did not participate in a single EC…and that is the biggest regret of her undergrad days.”</p>
<p>And whose fault is that? That was her choice. You can’t take her experience and assume that all U-M undergraduate students don’t have the option to participate in extracurricular activities. This can happen at any school regardless of campus size. I am a graduate student, yet I have had no problems joining student organizations here. It’s all about EFFORT.</p>
<p>admitone, your analysis is off on several fronts. </p>
<p>1) Michigan is not 7 times larger than Brown. Brown has close to 6,000 undergrads to Michigan’s 26,000. If my math is correct, Michigan is less than 5 times larger than Brown. </p>
<p>2) Comparing Michigan’s matriculation stats into law school to Brown’s is not entirely fair. Over 50% of Michigan students are Engineering, Science, Medicine, Business, Nursing or Music majors/pre-majors. Only a third of Michigan’s student body are humanities/social science majors. At Brown, that number is well over 50%. Altogether, roughly 10% of Michigan students are prelaw, compared to a (I am fairly certain) a much higher percentage at Brown. </p>
<p>3) Finally, not many Michigan pre-law students apply to Harvard and Yale Law because most are perfectly happy with Michigan Law. Brown does not have a law school of its own, and given its geographic proximity to Connecticut and Massachusetts, it would seem natural than many of its pre-law students would apply to Harvard and Yale Law. Last year, only 100 Michigan undergrads and alums applied to Harvard Law school and 340 or so applied to Yale Law. That’s not as large as Brown I bet. But, Michigan’s placement rate into Harvard and Yale law schools were 11% and 10% respectively, which is equal to Penn’s and Cornell’s placement rate. </p>
<p>If you have Brown’s placement rates, please share them with us. I am collecting as many of those reports as possible.</p>
<p>At any rate, just because Michigan is large does not mean that it will have more students applying to Harvard or Yale Law. And just because another university happens to have more students at a graduate program that only accepts a handful of students from any one university does not signify that its students are given preference simply because they attended that university.</p>
<p>if i were a poli sci major with some intention of going to law school, i wouldn’t make this decision based on academic reputation, both schools are going to be great, with more classes and greater variety of classes at Michigan due to the size. This is not Harvard vs. Michigan, or Michigan vs. Wayne State, both are great schools, and it’ll be an individual decision. </p>
<p>will you run into dumb people at michigan? yes. will you at brown? yes.</p>
<p>lesdiablesbleus, as a person who has travelled more than most (I have lived, studied and worked in 7 countries on three continents and travelled to over 40 countries in 5 continents), I find your comments ignorant, unjustifiably elitist, unfounded and most of all, completely false. </p>
<p>Even by my outrageous standards, Michigan students tend to be well travelled and cultured. I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that Brown students are “a lot more sphisticated” than Michigan students. From my experience, Michigan students are cultured and sophisticated relative to students from any other university.</p>
<p>And even the small percentage of Michigan students that haven’t travelled have incredible exposure to international issues and students at the University of Michigan. Michigan has 1,300 international undergraduate students. How many does your school have? 300? Maybe 400? That’s roughly 4 times fewer undergraduate international students than Michigan. Michigan also has over 3,000 international graduate students and one of the largest and most active study abroad programs/network anywhere. When Michigan puts together an international event such as Diwali (which is upon us), thousands of students (both Desi and non-Desi alike) participate in the event. </p>
<p>And I have no even touched on the faculty. Hundreds of Michigan professors were born in foreign lands. </p>
<p>All of you private school groupies need to inform yourselves. Your sweeping comments are often incorrect and rarely qualified. Your ignorance is appalling and will not serve you well. I truly hope you do not approach people and more meaningful pursuits with such brazen and irresponsible nonchalance.</p>
<p>Alexandre is wrong on several counts. I will address some of these points now while I have some time.</p>
<p>1) Michigan CAN MAKE NO SOUND CLAIM to being a top 6 law school. The top 6 law schools IN ORDER with complete certainty in the mind of every educated legal scholar in the country are Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU and Chicago. Boalt is the only law school that could MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE break into the top 6 if you talk to certain revolutionary minds but that’s about it. The hierarchy of law school prestige is set in stone unlike undergraduate rankings and is not something that educated people should even be debating.</p>
<p>Michigan is a top 10 law school, along the same lines of UPenn, Northwestern, Duke, Virginia, etc. Georgetown and Cornell are considered the undisputed bottom feeders of the T14 law schools.</p>
<p>2) Socioeconomically speaking, Michigan out-of-state students tend to be rather well off in comparison to in-state students. UMich’s financial aid is severely lacking in comparison to a top private school like Brown that offers much better financial aid packages, so it would be almost foolish to pay MORE for a Michigan education if you’re from outside the state than for a Brown education. In fact, even lower middle class families from Michigan would probably have to pay less at Brown than they would have to at Michigan.</p>
<p>Only a wealthy, upper-class Michigan resident would benefit financially from choosing Michigan over Brown because of the cheaper rates instate for UMich over the default price tag at Brown.</p>
<p>“Michigan CAN MAKE NO SOUND CLAIM to being a top 6 law school. The top 6 law schools IN ORDER with complete certainty in the mind of every educated legal scholar in the country are Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU and Chicago.”</p>
<p>Really? Are you sure that’s what top Legal scholars think or are merely stating your opinion? Depending on the year, Michigan’s Law Peer Assessment score is anywhere between #5 and #8 in the nation. The average Peer Assessment score (rating according to top Law scholars) over the last 4 years is as follows:</p>
<h1>1 Harvard: 4.8</h1>
<h1>1 Yale: 4.8</h1>
<h1>3 Stanford: 4.7</h1>
<h1>4 Chicago: 4.6</h1>
<h1>4 Columbia: 4.6</h1>
<h1>6 Cal: 4.5</h1>
<h1>6 Michigan: 4.5</h1>
<h1>6 NYU: 4.5</h1>
<h1>9 UVA: 4.4</h1>
<h1>10 Penn: 4.3</h1>
<p>No other Law school averaged better than 4.2.</p>
<p>According to Recruiters, the top Law programs were as follows:</p>
<h1>1 Harvard: 4.8</h1>
<h1>1 Stanford: 4.8</h1>
<h1>1 Yale: 4.8</h1>
<h1>4 Columbia: 4.7</h1>
<h1>5 Chicago: 4.6</h1>
<h1>5 Michigan: 4.6</h1>
<h1>5 UVA: 4.6</h1>
<h1>8 Cal: 4.5</h1>
<h1>8 NYU: 4.5</h1>
<p>The above ratings are not open to debate like the USNWR undergraduate PA. Those are ratings by experts in a very specialized field. According to them, Michigan is definitely one of the top 7 Law schools.</p>
<p>I was wondering, is this because U of M and Brown rejects a lot of poor kids (to save themselves from having to give lots of aid) or just because most people that apply and get accepted come from richer families?</p>
<p>I think it has to do with the greater emphasis the middle and upper classes place on education. Also, a lot of poor kids may be getting accepted to UM or Brown, but cannot afford it and choose to go to their In-state U at a much cheaper price.</p>
<p>Regardless, I would say UM is pretty socioeconomically diverse, though its difficult to ascertain wealth/class, as it isn’t really discussed (at least from my experience).</p>
I am basing my perspective on the opinions of partners of several major Chicago/NYC law firms and individual who sits on the Michigan Law School admissions committee. You are twisting my words Alex. I was talking about the top 6 law schools, not the top 7. The top 6 law schools in the country are Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, NYU and Chicago in that order. In fact, the acronym HYSNCC is well known among law school students and faculty alike just like the acronym HYPSM is well known among the undergraduate masses.</p>
<p>USNews has very little credibility when it comes to accurately pinpointing the exact prestige of an university and is rather best used to give someone a very general idea of where a certain school stands. I wouldn’t put much stock into these PA and recruiter scores if I were you. Statistics can’t measure something as qualitative as prestige.</p>
<p>
Your analysis is a little off here Alex. Almost ALL of the humanities/social sciences majors in LSA are pre-law and Michigan has more kids apply to the top law schools than any other school besides Cal. These are all facts that are verifiable via the LSDAS.</p>
<p>Based on the data that I’ve seen, a higher proportion of Brown students do apply to law school, but there are definitely more highly qualified applicants to the top law schools from Brown than there are at Michigan.</p>
<p>Brown students score much higher on the LSAT than Michigan students due to receiving a superior college education and being better candidates coming out of high school.</p>
<p>Average Brown LSAT: 163
Average University of Michigan LSAT: 158
(LSDAS)</p>
<p>This is a STAGGERING difference.</p>
<p>
This is an absolutely ridiculous statement. At the grad school level, no one settles for a lower ranked institution. It is well worth it to pay six figures more to attend Harvard than Michigan because you are basically guaranteed a 200k + job fresh out of law school that will make paying your loans back a cinch. There are few things in life that guarantee success but going to HYS law school does. The top new New York City law firms pay fresh law grads upwards of $300,000 a year.</p>
<p>Michigan is a great law school but it’s no Harvard or Yale Law. I am willing to bet the farm that the number of kids who choose Michigan Law over HYS Law are in the single digits and more likely 1 or 2.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that essentially no Michigan students have a shot at Harvard or Yale Law School barring a few exceptions. While at Brown, the exceptional students do stand a solid chance.</p>
<p>
Unfortunately, this racial integration you imagine happing at Michigan is really nonexistent Alex. Most international students in Michigan often stick in their own ethnic cliques and don’t mix with the regular locals, which is the case in nearly every university.</p>
<p>Most Michiganders have never left the state Alex and their big “cultural experience” is going to Chicago. In contrast, most Ivy League/Duke/Stanford/Chicago DOMESTIC students have extensive international backgrounds and are very familiar with international cities like New York City/London/Paris/Barcelona/etc. They understand what constitutes fine dining and what constitutes high-end accessories.</p>
<p>Most Michigan and state school students in general wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a Patek Philippe and an ESQ Swiss. They also consider Olive Garden and PF Chang “fine dining”. They couldn’t tell the difference between a Pinot Grigio and a Chardonnay for their life. They don’t know any famous international paintings besides the “Mona Lisa” and the “Last Supper”. They probably don’t know a SINGLE famous international opera. Their knowledge of Shakespeare revolves around “Romeo and Juliet”. They know maybe about 5 international capital countries. The list goes on and on…</p>
<p>Cultural education in the United States is severely lacking at the high school and college level. If the OP has the desire to become a more sophisticated and well-rounded person, then Brown is the abundantly clear choice.</p>
<p>^^^^The above statements are so grossly simplistic that I won’t even attempt to respond to any of them. I will state however, that the average attendee of Brown certainly has no problem leaving his/her state. Just go a few miles in any direction and you are out of Rhode Island. I can however see a complete and utter attempt by this person to put down others who he/she feels are beneath his/hers social status. I suppose if you reflect the type of person who goes to Brown, than I hope the OP and others would think twice about attending your school of preference. Frankly, you should be embarrassed by your remarks.</p>
<p>"Average Brown LSAT: 163
Average University of Michigan LSAT: 158
(LSDAS)</p>
<p>This is a STAGGERING difference.
"</p>
<p>Really? I suggest you learn some statistics. Standard deviation for LSAT is 2. I am not going to go through the calculations but that basically means you cant say the difference is significant on a 90% confidence level.
I know what you are saying but i like to point out statistical flaws :-p</p>
<p>“Most Michiganders have never left the state Alex and their big “cultural experience” is going to Chicago. In contrast, most Ivy League/Duke/Stanford/Chicago DOMESTIC students have extensive international backgrounds and are very familiar with international cities like New York City/London/Paris/Barcelona/etc. They understand what constitutes fine dining and what constitutes high-end accessories.”</p>
<p>What a dumb comment. You forgot to mention that there are Michiganders (such as me and plenty others) who DO have relatives in OTHER parts of the country. Can you explain that one, lesdiablesbleus? </p>
<p>“Cultural education in the United States is severely lacking at the high school and college level. If the OP has the desire to become a more sophisticated and well-rounded person, then Brown is the abundantly clear choice.”</p>
<p>Your definition of “culture” is code-word for maintaining high status. There are some people (shocking!) in this world who live quite modestly and simply don’t care for such an environment. IMO, a well-rounded person is someone who appreciates the diversity around them and doesn’t discriminate against another person simply because they don’t participate in such luxuries and trivial entertainment. You only care about doing better than someone else. Seriously, lesdiablesbleus, you are an elitist, superficial, and ignorant person who wouldn’t care at all if you walked over someone not as “cultured” as you. Worse, you use your flippant attitude to make gross generalizations about people and institutions you have no background knowledge at all. GROW UP.</p>
<p>i actually wish what he said were true, if we could turn these poor and unmaterialistic students into future leaders then michigan is amazing. michigan’s reputation is actually quite the opposite, the demographics are diverse, but diversely rich. almost everybody’s from rich suburbs.</p>
<p>lesdiablesbleus…if you’re really a duke student, your comments certainly don’t reflect well on Duke and the type of student they accept. I hope you chose your name randomly.</p>
<p>I’m a Michigan student and I have travelled significantly in the United States and Europe. The international population is very impressive here. What I’ve found is that Michigan is about the most open place I’ve been at where students from different countries interact quite well.</p>