Brown PLME vs Yale

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>
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Sakky. Something weird about that result. Back when I was in undergrad, they warned about a phenomenon that hit the very top students. These people had done extremely well in college, but thought they were so great that they applied only to Harvard and Stanford, with Hopkins as a safety, and seemed surprised when they did not get in med school. The next year they listened to the advisers, applied to a range of places, and got acceptances. By that chart, those Berkeley students would have been better off dropping a few gpa points and MCAT points and joining the 10/10 people with weaker records

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</p>

<p>Sure, perhaps overconfidence was the story. I don't know what the causation was. But it doesn't matter. At the end of the day something caused some of those people with the best GPA's and MCAT scores to not get in anywhere. With PLME, at least you know that, even if you do become overconfident and hence mistakenly apply to only the top MD schools and don't get in anywhere, you'll at least still be able to stay at Brown. In other words, PLME can "save you from yourself". And surely all of us know ostensibly brilliant young people who nevertheless do foolhardy things and hence need to be saved from themselves.</p>

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<p>I agree with sakky on this one. While normally I recommend against students going into combined programs for the reasons mentioned, going to an inferior institution that may limit your chances if you decide not to pursue medicine being the big one, in this case of Brown's program I tend to think you should go for it. Brown is one of the best places for getting your undergraduate education out there (I would certainly argue that for undergrad it is better than many other schools that are ranked higher than it), and having a guaranteed acceptance to a solid med school would relieve a great deal of stress later on. If you decide that you do not want to pursue medicine, you have an ivy education to fall back on, and with no core curriculum, it would be pretty easy to catch up if you decided med school wasn't for you.</p>

<p>A side note: for all those who've said the OP could just apply to Brown med later on if that's where they were interested in going (though I can't imagine any high schooler knowing enough to be interested in a specific med school), it's essentially impossible to get into Brown Med unless you're a part of PLME, Brown undergrad, or have some connection to the state of Rhode Island. In fact, this may be something for the OP to consider against the program: do you really want to be around the same people for 7+ years?</p>

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<p>My brother had a classmate at Harvard who turned down Brown PLME. His friend did well at Harvard and then went on to Harvard Medical School. I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong answer here. If someone is 100% sure they want to go into medicine, then PLME may make some sense. On the other hand, there is less time to explore other majors and careers in the program, and the whole experience is a bit "pre-professional" rather than a typical college one as you attend certain core classes and programs with a clique of other students from PLME. The also become your main social group. At Yale or non-PMLE Brown, you are fully integrated into the college and are free to discover your calling, which may or may not be medicine. Even for someone committed to medicine, it is possible that Yale could be better, if one felt the overall educational experience in whatever area, be it neurosciences, humanities, general education were superior to that of PMLE. One other point is how well the student handles stress and risk. There will be a certain group of top high school students who want to be premed that will not make it at Yale. Presumably, they also had good "stats" too upon entrance to Yale. On the other hand, if the student has the self confidence and foreknowledge that as long as he does reasonably well, he will have a 90-95% chance of acceptance, he should be able do fine. It is a risk but certainly not a very high one. On the other hand, if he does not handle stress well, being preadmitted, and being able to dabble in courses of interest while taking the required premed courses without pressure can be attractive. This is definitely a personal decision although I did point out some of the obvious advantages to PLME in my earlier post.</p>

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<p>someone stated "A side note: for all those who've said the OP could just apply to Brown med later on if that's where they were interested in going (though I can't imagine any high schooler knowing enough to be interested in a specific med school), it's essentially impossible to get into Brown Med unless you're a part of PLME, Brown undergrad, or have some connection to the state of Rhode Island. In fact, this may be something for the OP to consider against the program: do you really want to be around the same people for 7+ years?"</p>

<p>This is a misconception. There are definitely non-PLMEs in Brown Med School (Alpert Medical School) as well as PLMEs. I think the number of non-PLMEs continues to grow each year and the med school class size continues to increase. </p>

<p>From the PLME website:
"PLME Admissions at a Glance
For matriculation in 2006-07 there were 1651 applicants to the PLME. Of that number, 88 were offered admission to the PLME... In fall 2006, 55 matriculated in the PLME..."</p>

<p>Here is some info from the Medical School website.</p>

<p>"Q. How competitive is Alpert Medical School?
A. For the Fall 2007 entering class, Alpert Med received 2,599 secondary applications and gave 93 offers of admission through the standard route.</p>

<p>Q. What percentage of students are admitted through the non-PLME routes?
A. Of the class entering in Fall 2007, 44% were non-PLME students.</p>

<p>Q. Is the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) required for admission?
A. MCAT scores are required for candidates applying through the standard route, the MD/PhD route, and the advanced standing route of admission. [MCAT scores are not required for the postbaccalaureate, EIP, and PLME routes of admission.] </p>

<p>Transfer into the Program
There is no point of transfer into the PLME. Students are not considered for transfer from other Brown degree programs or from another college.</p>

<p>Qualified graduates of any college or university may apply to the MD program through the standard route of admission </p>

<p>The postbaccalaureate route provides a linkage between Alpert Medical School and the premedical postbaccalaureate programs at Bryn Mawr College, Columbia University, and Goucher College. </p>

<p>The Early Identification Program (EIP) provides selected students with a place at Alpert Medical School upon continued academic progress and college graduation. This route has two components.</p>

<p>For Rhode Island Schools: it is a cooperative venture between Alpert Medical School and Providence College, Rhode Island College, the University of Rhode Island. </p>

<p>For Tougaloo College: it is a cooperative venture between Alpert Medical School and Tougaloo Collage, a private, historically black, liberal arts institution, in Tougaloo, Mississippi.</p>

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<p>Among non-residents applying the standard way, 1780 students applied in 2005. 40 (2.2%) were granted interviews. I think that qualifies for NCG's comment about "essentially impossible."</p>

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<p>pmyen states "If someone is 100% sure they want to go into medicine, then PLME may make some sense. On the other hand, there is less time to explore other majors and careers in the program, and the whole experience is a bit "pre-professional" rather than a typical college one as you attend certain core classes and programs with a clique of other students from PLME. The also become your main social group. At Yale or non-PMLE Brown, you are fully integrated into the college and are free to discover your calling, which may or may not be medicine."</p>

<p>I don't think this is true at all, perhaps he has confused PLME with another combined program. At Brown, you are NOT grouped together with just PLMEs. Yes, all PLMEs have to take those pesky science classes that are required to meet admission standards for med school but so do all non PLME premed students. PLMEs are free to take those courses whenever they want; they don't have to cram them in all into the first 2-3 years in preparation for MCATs. PLMEs don't have to take MCATs. MANY PLMEs are not majoring in science, so the students are spread out in all types of classes. So, PLMEs may not have other PLMEs in their classes.</p>

<p>Now, I agree that they may know each other since they have opportunities to get together. I believe there are weekly/monthly events like outside speakers giving talks on all kinds of subjects. They also have some social gatherings. PLMEs pick and choose when to attend. I know my son attended something at the Med School and he was the only freshman PLME there; it was mostly older students (possibly med students, not undergrads). But he had the OPTION of attending. Brown provides tons of opportunities but PLMEs make their own choices. My son is friendly with some PLMEs but most kids he hangs out with are NOT PLMEs.</p>

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<p>Well, I'm not sure what this years numbers were for PLMEs, but I think someone said the acceptance rate was about 4% so it seems small either way. The medical school class size will continue to grow. As stated back in 2006, the % of non PLMEs (vs PLMEs) will continue to grow. <a href="http://biomed.brown.edu/dean/communications/2006/corporation.php"&gt;http://biomed.brown.edu/dean/communications/2006/corporation.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"In a related action, the Corporation also approved the recommendation of the administration that the target size of the student body of Brown Medical School be expanded from the current number of 354 to 432 by academic year 2011-2012. The exact number of students enrolled in Brown Medical Student each semester may vary from this target within a range of plus or minus five per cent.</p>

<p>This action will increase the size of the Brown Medical School student body by approximately 25 percent over the next six years. This will be accomplished by increasing the number of matriculants entering the medical school through the standard (premed) admission route (the number of students admitted via PLME, approximately fifty per year, will remain constant). The total number of first-year medical students will, over the next three years, increase from the present 72 to 108.</p>

<p>The proposed increase in class size will occur at the same time that the Brown/Dartmouth Program, currently a source of 15 third-year students per year, is being phased out over the next four years. Thus, the proposed expansion will lead to only modest expansion of our present contingent of students in their clinical training years (third and fourth years), while the size of the first-year class will increase by nearly 50 percent."</p>

<p>I don't think the OP should choose PLME if Yale is where he prefers to spend his college years. Brown and Yale are both great choices and I agree with those who think he's capable of success going either route. But I wouldn't turn down PLME simply for the prestige of Yale. My son heard lots of those comments when he turned down Yale, disbelief that anyone would say no, but prestige just wasn't an important factor in his decision.</p>

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<p>i was talking to someone the other day who turned down plme for stanford because though it's nice to be guaranteed admission to medical school early, brown's medical school is ranked about 40. if you got into plme in the first place, you will probably have no problem getting into a top medical school like harvard, stanford or johns hopkins :)</p>

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<p>From the West Coast, are we? :)</p>

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<p>Brown (Albert Medical School) is currently ranked 23 in Primary Care and 31 in Research. Brown students get into top residencies, have a terrific undergrad experience with little pressure, and for many, the costs are very low (Brown has recently increased its financial aid policy).</p>

<p>according to the Alpert Medical School website:</p>

<p>Alpert Medical School Rankings Continue to Rise
posted: 04-07-2008</p>

<p>The latest U.S. News & World Report rankings reveal that in the Research category, Alpert Medical School has risen from 43 to 31 in just four short years. It has also risen in the Primary Care category, from 27 to 21, well within the top quartile. </p>

<p>Search</a> - Medical - Best Graduate Schools - Education - US News and World Report</p>

<p>From the Brown - Alpert Medical School website:</p>

<p>Best Match Ever
posted: 03-20-2008
Members of Alpert Medical School's Class of 2008 were among the more than 15,000 U.S. medical school seniors who recently learned where they will spend their years of residency training following graduation. The news is good: according to the National Resident Matching Program, which conducts the Match, more than 94 percent of seniors who applied for residencies this year were paired with a program of their choice -- the highest percentage in more than three decades. Covering the event were both Channel 12 web news Eyewitness News WPRI / FOX Providence - Providence, Rhode Island News, Weather, Traffic and Sports | Home - Eyewitness News? WPRI 12 Providence Rhode Island and Southern New England News and Weather as well as WRNI radio, the local National Public Radio station. Alpert Medical School results are now available!</p>

<p>MD</a> 2008 Match List</p>

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<p>saying that they'll have 'no problem' getting into hms, stanford, or hopkins is nothing short of foolish. even the absolute top undergrad schools send one or two kids per year to those programs (think about it, Stanford Med is 85 students per class). Brown's med school is an excellent program that that majority of premeds would be extremely lucky to get into , med school rankings are by far the least important relative to others (meaning law, business, etc.).</p>

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<p>First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for your wonderful insights and knowledge: it's certainly opened my eyes to factors I hadn't even considered (or known existed). However, after attending the recently concluded A Day on College Hill (ADOCH) pre-frosh event at Brown, and specifically after attending the PLME panel, I have a few (new) thoughts.</p>

<p>Dean Ip and jerzgrlmom both mentioned the lighter course requirements for PLME students for the Alpert School of Medicine. Also, a current PLME student at ADOCH talked about the relatively easy AP place-outs from those PLME required courses. That leads me to this thought: let's assume for a moment that I am extremely interested in a humanities field and decide to fully utilize Brown's Open Curriculum and take only the absolutely necessary science courses. Would I not be at an academic disadvantage upon entering med school? I know from personal experience how ephemeral science-based knowledge can be. In this scenario, wouldn't Brown's PLME create more trouble for me upon my arrival in med school? Would I not have to do a major restudying of the science material necessary for a successful medical school career?</p>

<p>Also, many of the student panelists and current PLME students at the session and jerzgrlmom all mentioned how much less stress PLME students felt as opposed to traditional pre-med students. Yet I understand that the path to becoming a practicing physician is full of stress. After four years of a relatively stress-free undergraduate career, wouldn't I be greatly unprepared and unaccustomed to the tremendous stresses brought upon by med school? Combine that possibility with my first thought, and the first year at Alpert after a PLME undergrad career suddenly feels extremely uncomfortable. </p>

<p>That said, I realize that my thoughts wander towards the extreme, and are unlikely to be as lethal as I made it sound. However, I wonder if there is any merit at all in those thoughts. </p>

<p>Finally, Dean Ip said something very interesting at the session. She said to "go with your gut" when deciding at which college to matriculate. Even after the terrific ADOCH event, my gut still whispers "Yale" to me. Barring an unpleasant Bulldog Days experience, I feel that my instincts and how I feel about my prospective home (for four years!) is more important than any numbers or percentages or data.</p>

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<p>that is definitely good advice (to go with you gut) and just remember that you will do fine whatever path you choose!</p>

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<p>When Dean Ip says PLMEs are less stressed, that does not mean they are hanging out and taking an easy courseload. Most likely, they are still working hard, pushing themselves, but choosing to do so (not being forced to do so). PLMEs are mature, self-directed students, chosen because in some way, they have shown Brown that they will take advantage of the open curriculum in a positive way. Just because you can place out of a class, doesn't mean you would or you should. It's an individual decision. I'm not sure why you assume PLMEs would choose to skip as much math and science as possible? How about all the kids who could do that but decide not to? Instead, they move up to higher level (more interesting) classes. Couldn't you see yourself in that group? </p>

<p>From your questions about needing to live in stressed environment so as to be able to cope in med school, one would think that the majority of PLMEs would struggle through med school and perform poorly on their USMLEs, leading to horrible residency placements. This is simply is not true. Check the residency placements for 2008.</p>

<p>Sounds like Yale is where you want to be and you're looking for reasons to validate that gut feeling you have. Don't worry. You really don't need justification. If you prefer Yale, go for it.</p>

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<p>I'd like to thank everyone who replied to this thread. Your thoughtful comments were greatly appreciated and have given me confidence that I made the choice that was best for me, which is Yale. Thank you, again.</p>