<p>I'm debating between two schools at the moment, Brown U and McGill U. I would like to know which offers a richer undergraduate experience, more personal classes and equally importantly, a better standing in the job market, specifically internationally speaking.</p>
<p>As far as academics go I'm interested in math/applied math, also some logic/philosophy-esque things.</p>
<p>As for undergraduate experience I'd say I'm on the moderate side; I don't mind a drinking/partying scene as long as it's not in excess, and I would like a place with a lot going on on campus.</p>
<p>I want to work abroad (outside US) so I would also like to know which of the two schools will better help me with being competitive in the job market; factors like career services, alumni network and university prestige are all taken into account.</p>
<p>Also another thing is that I would be paying Canadian (out-of-province) tuition if I went to McGill, and would receive relatively little to no FA at Brown. The low FA at Brown isn’t a deal breaker, but I am curious if I am really getting more bang for my buck, so to say, if I went to Brown.</p>
<p>Both are fine schools academically, but not very comparable with respect to your questions. McGill is a large university with over 25,000 undergraduates. Brown, in contrast, has 6,000 undergraduates. Where do you think you would get “more personal classes?” A much better comparison for McGill is Cornell or one of the better US public flagship universities. Your question regarding a “richer undergraduate experience” is really very subjective and depends upon what you mean by “richer.” I believe most people believe that Brown offers one of the better undergraduate experiences based upon student satisfaction surveys. But that too is quite subjective. Most students at McGill will be from Quebec simply because it is a public institution–although you will find students from all over the world. Brown, being a private institution, draws its students from all of the US and will also have a reasonable number of internationals. Simply by nature of the relatively more diverse student population, one can argue that Brown will offer a “richer” experience. On the other hand, the vastly larger undergraduate student body at McGill might be the basis for a “richer” experience for some.</p>
<p>In terms of prestige (a vastly overblown factor in my opinion), Brown probably carries more of a “wow” factor in the US and, I suspect, that McGill probably does internationally. Because Brown focuses its efforts on undergraduates (and many of its graduate programs are rather pedestrian), it is far less known abroad than some of the other Ivies. But Brown is well known enough. The reality is that your ability to find a job abroad will be far more dependent upon your personal qualities and achievments than whether your diploma says Brown or McGill.</p>
<p>Brown full cost is roughly $60,000/year, compared to $20,000 for McGill. Save the $160,000 and go to McGill. In terms of academic quality, both are excellent, albeit very different. In terms of prestige (which is of minor importance), Brown wins in the US and McGill in Canada. Internationally, both have their pockets. McGill is hurting financially and does not provide the same level of personalized attention as Brown. But is that worth $160,000? Unless your goal is to work for a very specific type of firm in the Northeast, I would say not.</p>
<p>So from what I gather from your posts, it seems that as far as non tuition-related factors go, the two schools are virtually equal in the “bigger picture”, as in the overall academic quality and how well it will prepare/train me for later ventures in life (including prestige), while their differences are in the little details. Am I correct?</p>
<p>Bonanza’s advice is totally on target. Brown is a smaller primarily undergraduate institution in small city, Providence, R.I. You design your own curriculum, there are no required core courses. There is personalized attention. McGill is huge, in the great urban setting of Montreal. It is very sophisticated. Like Cornell, you have to be a self starter ad very independent. Both institutions are excellent, Brown better known domestically and McGill internationally. The question is where YOU fit. Do you want to attend a primarily undergraduate institution where the emphasis us on you the undergraduate, or a renown institution where you may come into contact in your upper level years with luminaries in their fields? Would you prefer the relative anonymity in your junior years?</p>
<p>PS these differences are not, in my opinion, little details! Money aside, you need to figure out where you would be happiest and therefore thrive and flourish.</p>
<p>That’s an interesting comment about thriving and flourishing. Here’s a question though: Generally speaking it’s a fact that both Brown and McGill are very schools academically and everything, both will provide a good education. Also neither carry a particularly “extreme” profile that would make a particular student absolutely miserable (compared to, say, a hardcore partyer at BYU or West Point). Suppose that I feel indifferent or mediocre (you know, just average) about McGill, and like Brown pretty well, once again is it really worth the trouble paying for Brown? Or, is it better to “stick out” the 3-4 years of undergrad, and move on (seeing as both provide relatively similar career prospects after graduation)? Given that a student will not feel <em>horrible</em> at McGill, should he/she settle with staying there or pay the extra for a <em>happier</em> time at Brown?</p>
<p>Sorry for all this speculation and money-oriented talk, but thanks for bearing with me! : D</p>
<p>My nephew just enrolled as freshman at McGill this fall and absolutely loves it. Yes, McGill is large school but at the same there are many islands where you can get personalized attention. Some of his intro classes are large others are small, just as you would find at Brown freshman year. I also have a niece and nephew who graduated from Brown so I also know the school well. The Open Curriculum is interesting for some, although each department has its set of requirements. With greater depth and breadth, I would argue McGill is stronger in mathematics and the sciences. As much larger school in a much larger city, you also have much more going on on and outside the campus. There is absolutely nothing about “settling” by attending McGill. Internationally, it is top ranked school whereas Brown barely registers outside the US. It is also very common for McGill grads to pursue graduate studies in the US. The alumni network is huge with graduates all over the world.</p>
<p>I’m not saying going to McGill is “settling” academic/prestige-wise, as (like you said) that’s a rather absurd statement. What I meant was more “settling” emotionally, if that can be said.</p>
<p>I guess my underlying question is that suppose a student isn’t feeling great, but not terrible either (it’s very rare that someone would feel absolutely <em>terrible</em>) at McGill, should he/she just “make do” with McGill (and save money along the way)? Or, would it be better for him/her to attend Brown, where he/she will be noticeably happier, while academic quality and all is (for the most part) same as McGill?</p>
<p>It sounds like people here feel whatever effect or influence attending Brown or McGill will have following graduation is for the most part the same, with McGill possibly giving a slight edge internationally and Brown within US. With that in mind, is there a legitimate reason for attending an expensive school where one will be happy to very happy for four years, instead of attending a cheap school where one will be, let’s say, OK-ish?</p>
<p>There is no relationship between cost of attendance and how you would feel at a particular school. Surveys tend to show that Harvard students are especially stressed and the school is hardly inexpensive. Most students at “cheap” party schools tend to be quite happy. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that you would be less happy at McGill than at Brown. Montreal is a fantastic city and all the students I know who went to McGill had a great time. Unless you have a compelling reason to want to spend an additional $160,000, I would pick McGill. Academics in your field are top notch, the environment is great, the alumni network is huge. What’s not to like?</p>
<p>Many good points are made here except that you should know Brown is one of the top ranked programs in the U.S. for Applied Math. The grad program too. And undergraduate research is very accessible at Brown, so you will likely be able to join projects with grad students or do independent research almost any time in your program. My daughter did as a math/cs major.</p>
<p>Is it true that you are looking at a 90k$US difference in COA? That is nothing to take lightly unless your parents really have money to burn.Won’t you potentially need that for grad school?</p>
<p>I can speak to the fantastic experience my daughter had at Brown with regard to all the points you are making. Bang for buck may depend on how hard you work the advantage of access to professors and research. I do know that by Sr year, my daughter had taken a couple grad level classes and had done enough undergrad research to make for a very good CV, good enough to gain admittance to a funded PhD program.</p>
<p>It seems your heart is really set on Brown and it is a fantastic place but it is a luxury. I think you should talk the money situation out with your parents. Going to one excellent school over another won’t make too much of a difference once you have a job or two under your belt. Why do you think you will only be okay at McGill?</p>
<p>In response you your final question, BrownParent, I guess it boils down to a matter of insecurity, heh. I come from a pretty small high school, class sizes are capped at around 25, and I find it absolutely splendid. Sure, it would be great if my college classes were around that size too, and yes, I see myself feel rather lost in the midst of a larger class, which to me is anything over 40 or 50 students (a common thing at McGill).</p>
<p>On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that not being used to large classes can really make college an unpleasant experience. Large classes may not be my favorite thing in the world, but I’m confident in saying that won’t make me flunk out. Plus, given that college only lasts up to 4 years, will the memory of not enjoying large classes really have a noticeable negative impact on me personally down the road, i.e. graduation? People (esp. on this forum) talk about finding a “FIT”, what I’m asking is could there be an over-emphasis on “fit”? McGill is by no means a bad school; although I’ve talked to several current students and their experiences seem to span a pretty large spectrum, from the great to the not-so-great. Yes, Brown is consistently rated as one of the happiest campuses, but does that really make it a much better choice over McGill?</p>
<p>On a final (side) note, my COA incl. room and board at McGill will be about 25k a year, versus 50k a year for Brown, meaning the cost difference for the degree as a whole is about 25k*4 = 100k.</p>
<p>That low class size is really fantastic. My daughter also went to a small high school. To her, Brown was large, compared to the LAC’s she and her classmates considered.</p>
<p>At many large uni’s, small class may be normal in the upper division, it is just getting through the lower div ones that you may have to tolerate. Check with each school. Even at Brown there are a few popular lower div classes like Econ and Chem that may have 100 people, but they have small labs to go with.</p>
<p>I do think “fit” maybe overemphasized for many students. I think it is more important in some circumstances where culture clash would make one miserable, for instance. Or for certain types, who are too frail emotionally (and that is a very important consideration, with no disparagement intended) or who really didn’t want an away experience. It is something you have to evaluate for yourself. Just be aware that the first year may be hard on you wherever you are.</p>
<p>One thing in Brown’s favor against a large uni, is the ability to stop by a prof’s office and ask to join his research. Even as a freshman, my daughter spoke to people who would refer her to others and email an introduction to their research teams. Prof’s look for help in research from undergrads, since the grad population is smaller. My daughter was able to do a couple of independent research projects directly with professors, then joined a larger group project that was high profile and that included grad students in the Comp Sci dept. That’s another strong department at Brown for undergrad and grad work. </p>
<p>Of course Brown is famous for the Liberal Arts, so you will find quite good Philosophy classes, English and Maths.</p>
<p>I would flat out lobby for Brown, for you, excepting the price tag difference. It is huge. We didn’t have to consider that.</p>
<p>Get on the McGill board, if there is one here, and really talk to you parents to see if $100 is no big deal to them.</p>
<p>You are comparing apples to oranges here. The choice is completely yours. There’s not an objective choice between those 2 schools.
McGill- Saving allot of money, large classes, 20k+ students, international recognition, gives the “wow factor” in Canada, in a big awesome city (Montreal), independence.</p>
<p>Brown- Paying allot more, Providence, small classes, personal attention, gives the wow factor in USA, no class requirements, Liberal education climate</p>
<p>It’s not a choice of “which is best academically” anymore, it’s the enviroment. Choose the place where you will be happier with everyday life, where you will get academically inspired.</p>
<p>metaxa summed it up in a nutshell with the apples and oranges metaphore, but if you are going to list great Brown attributes, the incredible access to undergraduate research should be in there and it isn’t something to take lightly.</p>
<p>BrownParent, you would be surprised how many undergraduate research opportunities are availlable at a major research institution. The ones I know well (Cornell, Michigan, Wisconsin etc…) in fact have more research opportunities than there are undergraduate students seeking them!</p>