Brown vs Berkeley OOS (CS)

College Search & Selection
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<p>Okay, so I'm now deciding which of these two I should attend as a CS major (at Cal I'm in for L&S CS, not EECS). I'm also considering double majoring with Math, Stat or Applied Math if I can handle one of those with CS.</p>

<p>As of now I'm leaning towards Cal because:
1. It's comparatively much better for CS majors.
2. Right next to Silicon valley and right on the bay... so I could work for startups, and it's probably easier to gain VC funding to start a business if that's what I wanted to do.
3. Better weather (but I don't really mind the cold of Providence either).
4. The people I've met from there seemed pretty cool and they all loved it there.</p>

<p>But, my qualms with going there are with:
1. The HUGE class sizes... I don't have a problem with large lower division courses, but I think even the upper-div ones are pretty big too, at least in comparison to Brown.
2. The dorms are so small for their outrageously high costs.
3. Off campus housing isn't any better.
4. The Berkeley area is apparently not safe... and on campus bikes get stolen all the time (I really wanted to bike to classes from dorms...sigh).
5. The campus is not great looking... especially Evans Hall. (not a big factor but I just thought I'd mention it)</p>

<p>Then there's Brown...</p>

<ol>
<li>Love the campus.</li>
<li>Wayy better dorms.</li>
<li>Still pretty good for CS, but nothing compared to Cal</li>
<li>The UTA program (I could teach classes as an undergraduate teaching assistant which seems cool)</li>
<li>The open curriculum of course.</li>
<li>And I can't stress this enough... SMALL classes (maybe not a few lower division courses, but they're definitely way smaller than at Cal)</li>
</ol>

<p>BUT:</p>

<ol>
<li>Bad location (Providence isn't the bay area)</li>
<li>Bad weather (not too much of a put-off though)</li>
<li>Not as great for CS. I looked at the curriculum at Cal and love how it's structured, plus there are so many cool classes there, but not as many at Brown. But Brown has a lot of classes I like too, just not as much as those at Cal.</li>
</ol>

<p>It may look like Brown wins from the number of advantages vs disadvantages... but I see them really, really equally. I'm sort of leaning towards Cal though because I really want the sort of start up culture of the bay... </p>

<p>I can't visit because I don't live in the US. My dad visited Cal though and he loved it.</p>

<p>Both cost nearly the same, and I can afford each comfortably. What do I choose? Any extra info or any opinions would be great.</p>

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<p>One could make a good case for either one. As long as the net costs are about the same and you can afford either one, you can’t go very far wrong with either one.</p>

<p>Why are you convinced, though, that Berkeley is so much better than Brown for undergraduate CS? I know what the US News department ranking says (Berkeley #1, Brown #20). However, that is a graduate program ranking. So you may want to consider whether the strengths that drive up Berkeley’s ranking at the graduate level are fully delivered to undergraduates. You’ve already noticed a difference in class sizes. You can look up enrollment numbers for individual classes here: <a href=“http://schedule.berkeley.edu/srchsprg.html”>http://schedule.berkeley.edu/srchsprg.html&lt;/a&gt;
For upper division CS (100-199) courses in Spring 2014, listed enrollment sizes range from 14 to 441. The big lecture classes have associated discussion sections (which may be led by a TA in most cases). I don’t know if Brown posts similar listings.</p>

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<p>Well, I don’t know about the level of education (they’re probably of the same quality), but my dad, as well as a bunch of other people in the software field that I know, really respect Cal’s CS program and think I should definitely go there. On the other hand, they don’t know much about CS majors from Brown (but that probably arises from west coast bias since most of the people I talked to were from California). Even so, I talked to a friend at Brown, and even he said that while CS is great there, I should consider going to Cal too. Plus the undergraduate US news rankings also puts Berkeley at #4 which is far above Brown, I think.</p>

<p>Thanks for the link, i’ll take a look at it.</p>

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<p>You must be referring to the undergraduate “Computer Engineering” ranking .</p>

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<p>Yeah, the one that just says “Computer.” I just assumed correlation between the CE and CS programs. Anyways, the rankings aren’t so important, it’s just what I’ve been told by people in the CS field that makes it seem like Cal is the better school for the major.</p>

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<p>If you’re certain about CS, I would choose Cal. </p>

<p>You’re right, though, Evans Hall is hideous. They plan to eventually replace it with newer, smaller scale buildings.
CS majors mainly have classes in Soda Hall and Cory Hall.</p>

<p>Try to dorm at Foothill.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I’m certain about CS (also maybe thinking to double major in either Stat or Math… but I’m SO turned off by Evans hall, even though that shouldn’t be much of a factor haha).</p>

<p>Anyways, Foothill would be equally far as the Units from many of my classes though since freshman year, lower div CS lectures are held in other places rather than at Soda Hall, right?</p>

<p>I’m still worried about the HUGE classes though… that’s my biggest reservation. I looked at the link tk provided, and some upper div classes have over a hundred students. Wouldn’t this be a problem? I really want to do undergrad research as well… but I’m afraid professors will be inaccessible. On the other hand, my friends at Brown tell me that it’s really easy to talk to professors and do undergrad research.</p>

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<p>Class size is determined mainly by the material being taught. Science, math and economics classes are larger because the course material doesn’t require a chat/debate with your professor - the material is based in facts.</p>

<p>You’ll definitely have to seek out the research opportunities, they aren’t going to be presented to you.
Post your specific questions about class size and research opportunities on the Berkeley forum.
I found it was easy to talk to professors at Cal as well…even in the huge undergrad classes. The key is going to office hours, asking questions, and making yourself known before the huge crush right before a mid-term.</p>

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<p>Truust: All rankings (having all kinds of criteria) would suggest that Berkeley is superior to Brown for CS – Berkeley has higher salary scale of grads, faster ROI, better faculty, much better research, access to top level research quality, access to SV, etc. But I think, above all those reasons, is Berkeley’s unique atmosphere being a center for start ups & VC, so everyone at Berkeley CS or COE & Haas, in general, is motivated to think “outside the box” so he could one day become a successful entrepreneur/innovator. That has been the culture now at a place like Berkeley & Stanford, which have grads that help propel the success of SV and are able to sustain that success as being the center of IT in the world. </p>

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<p>I completely get this for lower div courses where discussion isn’t that important, but it feels like having 150-200 students in almost EVERY class is a bit excessive.</p>

<p>But yeah, I get that Berkeley is Berkeley for CS… and it’s basically in the valley, so I’m still leaning towards it. I just wish I could also have the sort of small class environment that Brown offers.</p>

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<p>You are right to be concerned about big classes. They are common at Berkeley, especially in a high-demand major like CS. You should weigh this concern against some of the advantages RML mentioned. But class size isn’t the only issue. Check out who is leading the smaller discussion sections. I think you’ll find that most (if not all) of them are grad students. Some of them may be good teachers but they are not the distinguished faculty whose work drives Cal up in the rankings.</p>

<p>Outside the classroom, Berkeley may indeed have opportunities that Brown does not. You can benefit from the presence of top faculty and their research if it creates a honey pot for investment and recruiting. Silicon Valley remains an important hub, which you may want to weigh heavily if you are ambitious and competitive enough to stand out in a big crowd. But doesn’t Brown offer good internship opportunities? It’s not exactly in the middle of nowhere. We’re in a networked world where computing is everywhere. </p>

<p>You have two good alternatives. I’d say go with the lowest net cost. If they are about the same, go with the one where you think you personally would thrive.</p>

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<p><a href=“homepage”>https://selfservice.brown.edu/ss/twbkwbis.P_GenMenu?name=homepage&lt;/a&gt; links to Brown’s class schedule, but you have to click on each class to find out enrollment. Looks like the introductory courses are over 100 students, while the advanced courses can be as small as 5 to as large as 91 for spring 2014. Smaller than at Berkeley, but not necessarily “small”. I would imagine the Brown has had increasing CS enrollments in recent years, but perhaps not to the magnitude seen at Berkeley (CS 61A >1000 students), Stanford (CS 106A >700 students), and Harvard (CS 50 >700 students) (and these counts are just for the fall terms).</p>

<p>Brown’s schedule does not seem to list TA-led discussions associated with the lectures, but the presence of a “TA Apprenticeship” course and your mention of the possibility of being a TA indicates that these should exist (unless the TAs are just used to be present to assist students in the unscheduled computer labs).</p>

<p>I would not be surprised if professors (and TAs) at either school are quite accessible in their office hours other than just before and just after tests are given (or projects are due).</p>

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<p>Brown’s CS classes are overwhelmingly small. The larger intro classes do have undergrad and grad TA’s that run the lab. The TA system in that department is highly regarded, and being a TA is a well respected position. It is an intimate department and everyone knows everyone. You can go to office hours of the Prof or the TA or both. Likely it is that way at Berkeley too. I’m sure your TA at Berkeley is going to be a grad student. My daughter also TA’d an upper division course of 12 students, she had taken that class and did research with that prof. That prof was well known for being widely available holding court in his office and she had hung out there before taking classes with him as well. Having a TA to get help from was just a bonus for that class.</p>

<p>I know this is a hard choice for the OP. I’ve chatted with him before. I do think that Brown will have greater academic freedom, and ease of taking any class in any department and grad classes as appropriate. He will enjoy a very close relation to professors, working relationships independently and in research groups likely including grad students. You can take it to whatever level interests. you. I can’t say he will be missing anything. Probably Berkeley has a larger array of elective classes, but you may actually be able to take more at Brown. Brown has a small well ranked grad department and relations with grad students are pretty close. The professors all teach undergrads.</p>

<p>Also truust, you can select the math-cs major or the applied math-cs major if you want. My daughter did math-cs and still was accepted to grad school in CS.</p>

<p>Students at Brown regularly intern/work in SV, that is not an issue at all. Literally half her class at least were going just to MS and Google only. But they also go to Boston and NYC, and into research.</p>

<p>Berkeley has the big name in CS here so hard to pass up but it is a totally different scenario. My daughter decided not to go but she knew the area and CA and wanted to have the away experiences and definitely smaller classes–she was also undecided so wasn’t picking a college for the major. I love the area myself as far as where I’d live to live, and the diversity is amazing. Plus you will be eating some of the best in the world once you are off meal plan. It will certainly be very easy to job hunt but he is also talking about grad school. I can’t speak to the student experience there, though. Maybe there are current students in the UCB forum?</p>

<p>truust, will you ever be going back to India to work, like your father, where Berkeley international reputation may be very important?</p>

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<p>I’m not going to be coming back; I mean there’s always the chance i’ll leave the country but it’s not probable.</p>

<p>I understand that Brown students can intern at SV companies which is great, but I also really want the whole startup culture that the area has (ie having support and relatively easier access to VC funding to start a company rather than just work for one) compared to the east coast in general.</p>

<p>I’m just going to mull over all of this for the next few days, and then make a decision. Thank you all for the replies!</p>

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<p>@Truust - give us an update! Where are you going?</p>

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<p>Still deciding! I’m SO stuck… even more than before. I’ve talked to alums and current students at both… and there’s so much to consider. I REALLY like Brown’s environment… but I also really want to be in the bay area. I’ve never made a harder decision…</p>

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<p>Does anyone know the difference between the actual quality of the education?</p>

<p>Does Cal offer a lot of courses that Brown doesn’t? And are they more advanced than what Brown offers? I’m looking at the course catalog for each, but I can’t really tell.</p>

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<p>I think each school offers courses that the other doesn’t. You have to see whether the courses you want are offered.</p>

<p>As far as the rigor or advancement level of the courses, well I cannot speak for Cal. At Brown, the objective is to make the curriculum challenging for the caliber of students that are admitted. If Brown, or any school, did not do this, then they would not be able to keep attracting the same caliber of students.</p>

<p>One quick way to assess this for Engineering or Computer Science, not dispositive by any means, is to compare the middle 50% of Math SAT scores at Brown against other schools you are interested in. If the Brown scores are equal to or higher than those of the other schools you are using for comparison…especially at the 75% mark…I think it is a pretty good bet the math related curriculum is equally if not more rigorous. </p>

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<p>I don’t think that’s a good indicator… especially in this case since the UCs don’t weigh the SATs as much as other universities (including Brown) do. And since the UCs also don’t superscore, it won’t be surprising if Brown has higher scores.</p>

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<p>I really enjoyed this Ted talk about Brown’s philosophy.</p>

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