<p>"They differ in their areas of academic strength, and graduate programs."</p>
<p>Can you say more about this?</p>
<p>1) the presence of a business school actually has no impact on dartmouth undergrads--undergrads are not allowed to take business school classes and business school students are someone isolated from the rest of the school</p>
<p>2) i beg to differ on the point about how close-knit the campuses are. i have found there to be no difference ...its not the case that brown students frequently leave campus to go to boston or nyc. in fact, if anything, because of the d-plan the class tends to be fragmented. after sophomore summer everyone at dartmouth is on campus at different times (either doing internships or abroad). by contrast, the brown class is on and off campus at the same times of year.</p>
<p>3) one social difference is the weekend emphasis on house parties at dartmouth. there are numerous frats and society houses that host multiple parties on weekends, most of which revolve around an impressive variety of drinking games. at brown, the social scene is more diverse, which may just be because the campus is less isolated (more interesting events and performances are attracted to campus, there is more to do in the city). also, as others have pointed out, brown has a less frat-based culture.</p>
<p>4) i think, by areas of academic strength (meaning departments) brown and dartmouth are very comparable. i've been very impressed by the economics department at dartmouth (my brother majored in economics at dartmouth). i would give a slight edge to the life sciences at brown, simply because the research facilities are more extensive and sophisticated. brown and dartmouth also have a few random areas of strength--egyptology at brown, native american studies at dartmouth. in truth though, i don't think there is much difference between the schools in terms of academic strength.</p>
<p>Bagels and Slipper, you both are hard-headed. Brown "is" significantly more difficult to get into than either Dartmouth or Columbia. Don't let Columbia's 9% admit rate, or this year's 13.2% admit rate for Dartmouth fool you. Historically both Dartmouth and Columbia have had higher admit rates for their ED admittees, and filled a higher proportion of their classes overall with ED admits. Look at it this way. Why has Brown been more successful in it's graduates snaring more Fulbrights, Rhodes, Udalls, Marshalls, Trumans, and Goldwaters than either Dartmouth or Columbia? Stronger students. Why does Brown have stronger students? Because when given the choice, brilliant students more often than not, choose Brown over either Dartmouth or Columbia. This is so obvious, it makes me wonder what anyone's agenda is in disputing this. Look at it another way. Harvard sits at the top for winning the most fellowships, and while inferior to Brown in winning Fulbrights, it does better than either Dartmouth or Columbia. Why does Harvard sit atop of the fellowships ranking? Stronger students. It has stronger students, overall, than any other Ivy, and it's fellowships performance reflects this. To be candid, the only three Ivy schools that have overall stronger student bodies are HYP, and Princeton and Brown are close. The rest of the Ivies simply are not competitive. Remember, fellowship winners can be undergrads, graduate students at the school, or graduates of the undergrad. For Brown to have more winners than Cornell, Penn, or Columbia, all much larger universities when you factor in graduate school and undergraduate students, attests to the much stronger student that is attracted to, and matriculates at, The University(Brown). If you can 't figure this out, or acknowledge this, then you have a personal agenda and an unobjective mind. Period.</p>
<p>Total garbage. (BTW I got into columbia, Brown, and Dartmouth and I love Brown. I just hate garbage, which is what is coming out of your posts). These schools are all great.</p>
<p>BTW I notice that you only have one argument. Dartmouth actually only accepts 28% of its class ED, less than Brown's 30%. Its often the lowest ED percent among the Ivies. So argument #1 is out the window. </p>
<p>I notice your only argument is based on Fulbright's. Have you considered the fact that culturally Brown students pursue this route while Columbia and Dartmouth students often tilt towards grad school and business. Also, did you know that in the last 5 years Dartmouth had more Rhodes scholars than Brown?</p>
<p>But since you want me to argue, let me explain why Dartmouth is better (even though I don't believe this, although maybe now I'm starting to.)</p>
<p>I'll try Dartmouth real quick:
Selectivity:
- Dartmouth avg SAT scores are historically higher by about 20-40 points, which is actually pretty significant. Dartmouth is closer to Princeton than it is to Brown.
- Dartmouth has a lower acceptance rate
- Dartmouth has a higher percentage of URMs in its class
- Dartmouth's RD acceptance rate is lower than Brown's
- Dartmouth beats Brown in terms of percentage of class at Harvard Law, Yale Law, Wharton Business, Stanford Business. Its higher on the feeder rankings by 5!!!!! spots
<a href="http://wsjclassroom.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://wsjclassroom.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf</a>
- Dartmouth has 4/5 elite consulting firms recruiting on campus as a core school. Brown has 2/5 (vault*)</p>
<p>It seems like Dartmouth students are to busy getting into places like Harvard and Yale law to apply for fullbrights. They are battling a harder RD rate. It seems like Dartmouth students are stronger and that's why so many elite consulting firms and banks (the most coveted jobs) recruit so much more at Dartmouth. </p>
<p>I don;t; believe this. But you're making me argue bac</p>
<p>Also
- Dartmouth has over 650K per student, Brown is closer to 250K. BIG difference.
- Dartmouth spends 3!! times as much on advising and internal grants than Brown (COHE)</p>
<p>People at Brown, for the most part, aren't too much into working for consulting firms, I-banks, or being lawyers.</p>
<p>Brown ftw.</p>
<p>oh man, slipper you dragged out into a war. to defend, brown's good name:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>on fellowships: Brown wins the most fullbrights in the ivy league, and is only behind HYP in total Rhodes Scholars as well as Marshall, Truman, Goldwater, and Udal Scholars. Dartmouth is not even in the top ten.
[url=<a href="http://consider.k-state.edu/scholars/index.htm%5Dscholars%5B/url">http://consider.k-state.edu/scholars/index.htm]scholars[/url</a>]</p></li>
<li><p>on selectivity: Brown has had a lower admit rate than Dartmouth by 2-6 percentage points on average over the last 10 years. Brown has a higher yield than Dartmouth by 5-10%. Brown is ranked as more selective than Dartmouth by U.S. News, Princeton Review and the Atlantic Monthly. This year, Dartmouth had a lower admit rate than Brown by a tenth of a percentage point--a statistic largely attributable to the fact that Dartmouth has a much smaller class size</p></li>
<li><p>Brown has the lowest early decision admit rate in the ivy league and has historically enrolled the smallest percentage of the class through this route</p></li>
<li><p>Brown is well represented at top grad schools, using Harvard Law as a blunt proxy--Brown is the 6th best represented school with 48 students while Dartmouth is the 12th best represented school with 35 students</p></li>
<li><p>Points 1-5 harp on neglible differences between two great schools and aside from friendly competitiveness, are highly inconsequential. you certainly shouldn't decide where to go based on any of the above.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I agree (although there is some fact twisting by dcircle). </p>
<ol>
<li><p>I agree this is Brown's strength. My point is that this is also cultural. There is more of a fellowship culture at Brown.</p></li>
<li><p>Brown is usually about 1-2 points lower, this year its marginally higher. I can't recall it ever being close to 6 points lower. Alot of those selectivity rankings will change after this year, with last year Dartmouth having 93% of its class in the top 10%. Regardless they are essentially always neck and neck in selectivity rankings. Next year they could easily swap, my guess is they will. </p></li>
<li><p>I think Pinderhughes misunderstands published acceptance rates. The overall rate includes RD and ED, his/ her argument is moot. ED vs. RD really only effects the yield statistic. Anyway both fight year over year for the lowest class size ED.</p></li>
<li><p>Brown is well represented, but Dartmouth is better represented. You have to take class size into account.</p></li>
<li><p>You're right. I can't believe I'm arguing why Dartmouth is better than Brown. Ridiculous statements by pinderhughes based on little to no data got me defending my alma mater against my second favorite school in the world. One should choose between these two for fit. Any criteria based on which is "better" is just ridiculous.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>The point is both are awesome.</p>
<p>.... ok. seriously does the fullbright thing have to be used everytime to defend Brown's name?</p>
<p>I feel like that's all it's good for. And I've definitely heard Rhodes more often than the freaking fullbright.</p>
<p>You guys are all pretty fierce about this. Grrrrr!</p>
<p>But hey, can we focus for a moment on human relations at the schools? My son likes the smaller size of Dartmouth (and Willliams and Carleton) because of the campus-focused social life, which seems to foster connections between students and perhaps make friendship easier. Also the close relations between students and faculty. He's excited about that. I think he is worried that students are more adrift -- and that it is harder to find community and harder to forge close ties with faculty -- at the larger Brown. What do you guys think? We have also heard that opportunities for leadership are much greater at the smaller schools (which may be an obvious point).</p>
<p>Meanwhile, he worries about the preppy frat scene (a thoroughgoing political progressive, he is nevertheless not at all put off by the conservative element at D and, in fact, thinks debate would sharpen his own thinking), would love to be near the mountains, worries about running out of courses in a particular field at a small place.</p>
<p>Hey, how do you all think the political science departments compare at D and B?</p>
<p>They are both going to be very strong in terms of political science. Both Brown and Dartmouth have special centers catering to poli sci and government majors and both have special programs placing students on the capitol as interns, etc. You really can't go wrong.</p>
<p>To be totally honest I think your concerns are spot on regarding both schools. I had the exact same dilemma. I loved the tightknit community and social life, beautiful new england campus, and academic programs of Dartmouth but I was concerned about the frat element. At Brown I loved the open minded spirit but was afraid of less community and a more fragmented student body and faculty.</p>
<p>After attending Dartmouth and visiting my best friend at Brown probably 8 times, my resulting experience is that both sentiments are relatively true but not as pronounced as one might think. Dartmouth is much richer than the frat element, although it is still a very visible part of the school while Brown is probably not as university-like as it might seem although it is more fragmented than Dartmouth.</p>
<p>For what it is worth - I will quote from the Fiske Guide (2006 edition) 'Columbia may soon leave Yale in the dust as the third most selective University in the Ivy League. Applications have doubled in the past ten years for one simple reason: Manhattan trumps New Haven, Providence, Ithaca and every other Ivy League city, with the possible exception of Boston'. Of course it depends on what you are looking for, but as parent of a D who just chose Columbia over the other two, I would recommend the Fiske guide for a comparison of these schools. Of course there were many many other factors involved in the decision, but location, quality of life and the core were very important to my D. Ultimately you have to choose what works best for YOU.</p>
<p>There's no question the core at Columbia is insane. If you're at all looking to double-major or do an interdisciplinary concentration, your answer is Brown or Dartmouth. The social scene is predominantly better at Columbia (NYC obviously). Brown has an outstanding Cognitive Neuroscience department (most schools don't even have one) and the curriculum freedom makes it very easy to get research opportunities right away (I did cognitive science and was taking graduate classes and had a research offer second semester of my freshman year). Brown is something like 85-90% placement into one of your top three medschool choices, it's even higher for business and law school (on the order of 95-98%). Both Columbia and Brown are very liberal...if you want more Republicans you'll have to look at Harvard. Happiest Students? Brown. End of story.</p>
<p>Slipper, I never said Dartmouth was not a great school. It is. It's just that, for most talented students, and I am backed up by data(You aren't) supporting my position, as well as my observations on this, Brown gets better people. The Revealed Preferences Study is just one methodological research survey demonstrating, conclusively, that Brown is significantly more selective than Dartmouth. In the 80s, Dartmouth was slightly more selective than Brown. In the 90s, it was neck and neck, with Brown having a slight advantage. Since the turn of the century, Brown has distanced itself definitively from Dartmouth in acquiring the finest students. SATs really aren't relevant here. Dartmouth is a very SAT focused school. Brown can be but isn't. The last time the two schools utilized the SAT in exactly the same way was for the class of 1973, and in that year, Brown's overall SAT profile was higher. Dartmouth's mean SAT verbal that year was 650, and Brown's was 680(uncentered, of course). Brown's math median that year was 678, and Dartmouth's 700. The differences were small, but as you can see, the combined SAT for Brown was higher. If you add Pembroke in the mix, Pembroke's median that year was 700, a full fifty points higher. It may surprise you to learn that the founder of modern day consulting was Marvin Bower of Brown. Brown grads are at the apex of Investment Banking, Consulting, and business. It's just that it doesn't have the critical mass of people in these professions as Dartmouth, Harvard, Yale, or Princeton because it is simply not as preprofessional as the aforementioned schools.</p>
<p>As for Columbia, which was the other Ivy I applied to and was accepted to the same time I applied to Brown, they have always played foot loose and fancy free with admissions statistics. Anyone who thinks that the 8.7% admit rate for Columbia represents a school as selective as HYP, or Brown for that matter, I want to sale you a bridge. It simply isn't true. Columbia has consistently used its numerous schools and the early admission program to artifically skew its admissions statistics to make it seem more selective than what it is as has Penn. That' just fact.</p>
<p>To reiterate. Both Columbia and Dartmouth are fine schools. The differential in quality for undergraduates between the two schools and Brown is miniscule. But Brown has better, smarter, students, and that is borne out in output measures of achievement. And, yes, fellowships won, Fulbrights won, and attendance, in quantity, at premier Law Schools is indicative of this.</p>
<p>All I have to say is:</p>
<p>You are ridiculous. </p>
<p>Stats from 1973!!!! to argue your opinion???? One consultant to argue against today's placement into banking and consulting??? </p>
<p>These schools are all equally selective with equally strong student bodies. Your reaching using absolutely dubious logic just proves that point.</p>
<p>Not helping. This is silly. Which school is better? Why not just whip 'em out and measure? The discussion need be, which school best fits the student, and why. These ivy schools, including Stanford, Williams, Wesleyan, Swarthmore, Haverford, Amherst, Middlebury, Carelton, Grinnell, etc…</p>
<p>Haha while I agree with you quuillshrink, this thread is a year old. I’m sure the student has long since decided where to go and is happily attending one :)</p>