Brown vs. Duke

<p>Honestly, if you’re truly undecided, the easy choice is Brown. The Open Curriculum is perfect for exploring around.</p>

<p>So basically, knat chose Duke because he didn’t bargain his financial aid package when he had a comparable one from another school and was convinced by some kids on the internet that grad schools look down upon the open curriculum despite all of the evidence to the contrary?</p>

<p>Then he took three visits to Duke (and none to Brown) to figure out that he liked it there.</p>

<p>I really hate these school X versus school Y threads, but I just want to make it clear that while I hope knat is really happy one year later, doesn’t sound like he really wanted to go to Brown after all since he was swayed but pretty much nonsense information/lack of information. Of course, he states straight up that he was looking for pre-professionalism and I’d send someone away from Brown most of the time if that’s the case.</p>

<p>OK, I’m a parent-though not of a Brown student. I am obviously very biased in favor of Brown and admit that. Still…this is my op of the difference FWIW.</p>

<p>There’s no one social scene at Brown. There’s no pecking order. Sure, there are some outstanding students whom everyone knows, but there isn’t an “in” or and “out” ***group. *** There are lots of different social scenes going on at the same time. There really isn’t a single typical Brown “social experience.” </p>

<p>Duke has the “400.” I THINK that’s the number. The Greek system is strong --MUCH stronger than at Brown.There’s a pecking order for frats and sororities. While, of course, there are tons of students who have no desire to join a frat or sorority and just don’t care, there is an “in crowd.”</p>

<p>One of the ramifications of this–at least I THINK it’s a result of the Greek scene–is that Duke women dress up a LOT more than Brown women for day to day life, like going to classes. Roll out of bed, grab jeans from floor, race to class is fine at Brown but would make a female a little “odd” at Duke. On the flip side, if you like wearing mascara and lipstick to your 8 am classes, you’d probably seem a little “odd” at Brown. ( I just googled trying to find a link to the 400 thing and found this: [Duke’s</a> Women’s Initiative -Duke University](<a href=“http://web.duke.edu/womens_initiative/report_report.htm]Duke’s”>http://web.duke.edu/womens_initiative/report_report.htm) See the part under the heading Undergraduate students. It’s good to know Duke is aware of the situation and maybe I’m way out of date, but I don’t think so. )</p>

<p>Brown’s strong in the arts. The theatre program is excellent. A capella is popular. Visual arts are really, really strong–especially due to the RISD connection. Spectator sports matter a bit, but not that much. Athletes don’t get an automatic “pass,” academically or socially. </p>

<p>Duke’s pretty weak in the arts–at least in the sense of other students paying any attention to them. (My kid couldn’t find a single tour guide who had ever attended an undergrad theatre production at Duke.) Duke basketball is, of course, very strong. The strength of the team leads to a RAH-RAH sense of communitythat Brown lacks–and frankly most Brown students are GLAD it lacks-- but many undergrads really enjoy. Jocks rule. It’s sort of like a lot of American high schools where jocks are at the top of the social ladder automatically. </p>

<p>Supposedly, I Am Charlotte Simmons by Tom Wolfe is based more on Duke than any other college. (His daughter was a student there.) The book doesn’t describe Brown. Oh Brown has just as much booze and drugs and sex as Duke does, I’m sure. But the role of the frats and the sports teams and the newspaper staff in the book is just not at all like Brown. </p>

<p>Again, I’m biased and admit that. I just think the social scenes are very very different. If you like RAH-RAH and think joining a frat or sorority would be great–and lots of people do–then Duke’s the school for you.</p>

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<p>Actually, Brown and Duke have a lot more in common than you think: </p>

<p>[Education</a> | projo.com | The Providence Journal](<a href=“The Providence Journal: Local News, Politics & Sports in Providence, RI”>The Providence Journal: Local News, Politics & Sports in Providence, RI)</p>

<p>The whole celebrity thing is pretty much over blown nonsense based on one book that’s basically just one guy’s opinion:
[The</a> Brown Daily Herald - Is Brown’s popularity a passing trend or here to stay?](<a href=“http://www.browndailyherald.com/is-brown-s-popularity-a-passing-trend-or-here-to-stay-1.2230594]The”>http://www.browndailyherald.com/is-brown-s-popularity-a-passing-trend-or-here-to-stay-1.2230594)</p>

<p>We’re not any better or worse on this issue than most other top schools, but for some reason people freak out about it more. Funny how Emma Watson, Scout Willis, and Lorraine Nicholson are just celebrity ploys, but Natalie Portman (Harvard), James Franco (Columbia and Yale), Julia Stiles (Columbia), Sarah Hughes (Yale), etc etc etc never come up, and those are just the few that I remember off the top of my head from recent years.</p>

<p>There are lots of famous people at all the Ivies.</p>

<p>Being the poorest ivy, Brown is more solicitous and desperate to admit unqualified rich celebrities (and their offspring) than the other ivies:</p>

<p>"Brown raised its profile by enrolling children or stepchildren of politicians and celebrities, including two presidents, three Democratic presidential nominees, two Beatles and seven Academy Award winners. A particularly controversial case was the son of Hollywood superagent Michael Ovitz, whose application sparked a debate within Brown.</p>

<p>Celebrity students generally lag their classmates in academic honors. But their prominence – and that of their parents – helped transform Brown into a top destination for students with a creative or artistic bent…Its endowment has risen from 29th nationwide in 1980 ($123 million) to 26th last year ($1.6 billion), although it remains the lowest in the Ivy League."</p>

<p>[Education</a> | projo.com | The Providence Journal](<a href=“The Providence Journal: Local News, Politics & Sports in Providence, RI”>The Providence Journal: Local News, Politics & Sports in Providence, RI)</p>

<p>Look at all the largest donations to Brown and you’ll see that what you’ve fallen victim is 1 part bad reporting, 2 parts 15 year old information, 6 parts invalid inferences.</p>

<p>■■■■■ elsewhere.</p>

<p>For the record, Brown is not the ‘poorest Ivy’ if one analyzes wealth in any sensible way.</p>

<p>An unintended consequence of the “Open Curriculum” is its appeal to rich and spoiled academically unqualified slackers whose parents are (for lack of a better word) “obligated” to contribute to Brown’s needy endowment in return for their children’s desired <em>wink, wink</em> admissions outcomes:</p>

<p>"In 1969, Brown eliminated requirements compelling students to take classes across the academic spectrum, part of a broad revision of its undergraduate education. The “New Curriculum” had an unintended side effect: expanding Brown’s appeal to Hollywood celebrities whose children hoped never to open another math or science text.</p>

<p>Brown’s lack of requirements was “a huge part of what made me want to go there,” says Tess Curtin Lynch, 23, daughter of comedian Jane Curtin. As a student at Harvard-Westlake School in Los Angeles, her grades were “brought down by math,” she says. The first time she took the math SAT, she says she scored 550 out of 800. Her college counselor at Harvard-Westlake told her she would need at least 600 to be competitive at Brown. Her family hired a tutor, who helped lift her score to 660 (along with a 700 verbal mark).</p>

<p>Not only is Lynch’s mother well-known, but her father is a Brown alumnus, giving her “legacy” preference. Brown alumna Nancy Josephson, an influential Hollywood agent, wrote her a letter of recommendation.</p>

<p>“I’m willing to admit I had the best possible set of circumstances,” says Lynch, who graduated from Brown last year with a degree in art history. “I was very lucky. I don’t know what my situation would have been without these steps up.”"</p>

<p>[Education</a> | projo.com | The Providence Journal](<a href=“The Providence Journal: Local News, Politics & Sports in Providence, RI”>The Providence Journal: Local News, Politics & Sports in Providence, RI)</p>

<p>An unintended consequence of the non-Open curricula at most other schools in the country is a glut of cookie-cutter kids who don’t feel responsible enough to design their own educations.</p>

<p>Brown’s endowment is in the middle of the Ivy League on a per-student basis. Making Brown out to be poor is completely disingenuous.</p>

<p>Ever wonder what this Stanford student is doing ■■■■■■■■ the Brown board with an article from the Projo?</p>

<p>Ever wonder why you students of the “Open Curriculum” are not very “open” to self-inquiry and criticism?</p>

<p>I’ve spent years writing on curriculum issues at Brown. In fact, I’ve met with the external accreditation committee when Brown was up for re-accreditation, officials from other US institutions and three international universities that came to Brown to learn about the open curriculum (Kings College, Warwick, and Seoul National U), etc.</p>

<p>I have written several feature articles in the BDH/Post on the curriculum, often being critical.</p>

<p>You’re a ■■■■■, plain and simple. This whole celebutante belief about Brown is tremendously over blown (even when it was describing the mid-90s when it was SLIGHTLY more true than it is today).</p>

<p>Plain and simple, this is just not something super unique about Brown.</p>

<p>I’m not entirely sure what an article in the ProJo alleging favoritism on the part of the Admissions office has to do with my own self-inquiry or criticism. And it is not a rejection of self-criticism to point out that Brown’s not poor. It’s not.</p>

<p>Like modest, I have also openly written critical words about Brown. I have at least 6 such letters in the BDH over the years. Would be happy to reveal them if you PM me and agree not to publicize my name.</p>

<p>LOL @ BDH. According to this article (paragraph 3, last sentence) in the BDH, Brown is an “academically rigorous institution.” This is an odd description of a university which allows its students to take anything and everything pass/fail, not to mention does not have any +/- grades or distribution requirements of any kind. The “Open Curriculum” is a lot of things, but it is not exactly known for its “rigor.” </p>

<p>[The</a> Brown Daily Herald - Is Brown’s popularity a passing trend or here to stay?](<a href=“http://www.browndailyherald.com/is-brown-s-popularity-a-passing-trend-or-here-to-stay-1.2230594]The”>http://www.browndailyherald.com/is-brown-s-popularity-a-passing-trend-or-here-to-stay-1.2230594) </p>

<p>Hardly Pulitzer-quality “journalism.”</p>

<p>I’m just a little confused - can you let me know what about those things is un-rigorous?</p>

<p>Interesting thread. dcircle, for once, does not flaunt his revealed preference rankings.</p>

<p>Some people will never realize how they come across, even if you let them know about it. The really bad ones don’t even take the time to think and just keep posting the same dumb links and logic. I am not agreeing for the sake of agreeing here, iamtbh’s username should be iamthick.</p>

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<p>I am wounded by such “biting” (no pun intended) wit.</p>