<p>Furthermore, there is no such thing as tolerance of intolerance. You have no inalienable right to not be around things you personally or religiously find icky. </p>
<p>Then the same is true that ppl don't have a right to be intolerant to other view points that they might find wrong. Not tolerating another view is the same thing as intolerance.</p>
<p>As much as I would like to have the last word here, it's really a silly debate and totally irrelevant to the question at hand. I personally think it's pretty silly to use tolerance of homosexuality as a measure of liberalism, and way overused. At Brown, the two don't necessarily align. I've made friends with some remarkably conservative people at Brown even though I'm gay, and I've known some liberal people who are notably less tolerant. You would be surprised how many people stop worrying about homosexuality when they have a friend who turns out to like other guys.</p>
<p>The truth is that liberalism at Brown is really complicated. It gets down to how people feel on a really basic level and not the outward trappings of causes they support. There is a great deal of political correctness, but it's because people are genuinely afraid that they will offend someone and would not like to build a bad reputation. More importantly, though, people at Brown worry about things other than what they will do when the graduate. They tend to want a job they think will be rewarding and they take more time to enjoy learning than elsewhere. We also tend to be concerned with things like identity and inclusion. I've had many late night conversations about what it means to, for instance, be white, which is not something people discuss on conservative campuses. Also, notably, our frats usually welcome everyone to their parties and many of them try to skirt the stereotype of being a fraternity/sorority. It's really so subtle that it takes a few weeks for you to see it.</p>
<p>In any case, if you're worried about the outward signs of liberalism, yeah, we have that too. There are occasional protests, people put of demonstrations on the main green, there's some pretty ingrained environmentalism, and from time to time you may see a gay couple cuddling on the lawn, but, despite what the Brown Spectator says, that part isn't really that different from anywhere else. Brown's real liberalism is a sense of openness to discussion you don't find many other places.</p>
<p>Dbatte: if a view is based on intolerance, i.e. any anti-homosexual stance, then my point about tolerance for intolerance rings true. Homosexual's stance is based on being accepted and perceived as normal human beings. Anti-gay people 's stance is based on bigotry. The former is frankly superior to the latter because the latter is textbook intolerance where as the former is simply a plea for inclusion that does not affect you. The former does not affect the latter in a any way. The latter greatly affects homosexuals.</p>
<p>No the arguement that acceptance does not effect you is wrong, you have to look to subsidary effects i.e. If I as a parent do not view homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle but my kids are surrounded with the concept that it is acceptable then it underminds my right to raise my children as i will, but also causes for the undermining of a parent in particular. The arguement about inculsion is distinct from acceptance I would have no problem with a gay person but that lifestyle is a sin. It is exactly like lying, lying is a sin and I don't approve of it, but would i not speak to liars nope. Then why should there be some level of intolerance for someone not agreeing with homosexuality. There is none. Not agreeing with something is in no way intolerant, but treating someone differently is.</p>
<p>"Then why should there be some level of intolerance for someone not agreeing with homosexuality. There is none. Not agreeing with something is in no way intolerant, but treating someone differently is."</p>
<p>Because most people who "disagree" with homosexuality don't just do so for moral superiority. They do so and they also limit the rights and privileges of homosexuals. That is a broad and sweeping statement that doesn't apply to everyone, but so is my "tolerance for intolerance" statement. </p>
<p>And furthermore, are there laws against lying? Is there mass hatred leveled against liars? Are liars not allowed equal protection under the law (save perjury)? </p>
<p>Let's equate this to someone a little more equal. You think homosexuality is a sin, but will still talk to homosexuals, etc. I think black people are lesser, but will still talk to them, etc. However, the school district keeps on telling my kids "all men are created equal," and I therefore object to this as an undermining of my right to raise my kids thinking that black people should lick the bottoms of my shoes. (please note sarcasm).</p>
<p>Furthermore, (sarcasm disappearing), a view against homosexuality is based on religion, so our secular schools and government don't get to preach or enforce such a view. If you have a view against homosexuality not based on religion, do please explain it to me, and have it make sense. </p>
<p>Acceptance may not be inclusion but there is currently neither. </p>
<p>I think root beer is gross and a sin, you shouldn't have any, and it shouldn't be served at any restaurant lest I get offended even if you want to have some at your own table. I don't want my sensibilities marred.</p>
<p>Dbate: you claim homosexuality to be a sin. Ok, fine whatever. But what is that based on?-->your interpretation of Christianity. But there are plenty of (valid/accurate) interpretations of the bible that don't have homosexuality as a sin. Further more, there are myriads of other religions out there with various different sects all with different views on the matter. </p>
<p>So when you get to college and you say that homosexuality is wrong, you better have something substantial to base it off of. And by the way, these biblical quotes are food for thought:</p>
<p>"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)</p>
<p>"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them." (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)</p>
<p>"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB</p>
<p>So why don't you use your bible to laud slavery and see how all the black people around you react.
I'm sure Harriet Tubman and Sojourner Truth are burning in hell right this instant.</p>
<p>Most people look at Leviticus for the Christian condemnation of homosexuality. This is unfortunate since the Old Testament is full of all sorts of other "morals" which are no longer thought to be rational. Then people like to say we under the new covenant the OT doesn't apply. Which is true if you believe that sort of thing but the NT doesn't say crap about homosexuality being wrong. It does say some other stuff people like to ignore though. Such as if a man dies his brothers must bear the widow a child. I'm not seeing anyone hanging on to that one. </p>
<p>IMO There is no such thing as sin.</p>
<p>As far as Levitcus is concerned there are other instances including one of the epistles of Paul which state that the homosexual offender will not enter Heaven. Please do not demean my religion by stating that there are other interpetations bc that is wrong The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is a sin, if you don't believe that, that is you but don't true to tell me something wrong about my own religion. Oh another example Sodom, which was destroyed bc of homosexuality.</p>
<p>Dont you dare misinterpet and try to manipulate The Bible, if you actually knew what those quotes meant you would also know that in order to maintain slavery slaves had rights that needed to be maintain and protection under the law that was very different from the slavery praticed in america. The Bible tells that if you harm a slave then the master shall be harmed, when The Bible refers to slavery it is more like indentured servants. Please I ask out of common decency don't demean my faith, i would never do it to someone else and regardless of ppl's views it is wrong to speak ill of someone's faith.</p>
<p>Another arguement for the fact that homosexuality is wrong comes straight from Darwinism. Obviously for a population to perpetuate one woud want to not engage in homosexuality, but even then there is the arguement from genetics which denotes the fact that a harmful trait would be negative and a population as a whole would want to avoid an occurance that is detrimental to its perpetuation. The residual effects of a population that openly approves of homosexual actions would be at a statistical disadvantage as the desirable traits within those ppl would not be based on to progeny, which when extrapolated would have the effect of causing a civilization to collaspe or more easily be conquered. These from a basic understanding of evolutionary theory should be obvious, as Darwinism tells us that traits that are present in a population are usually adaptabilty for higher probabilty for intercouse for the opposite sex and therefore is a desirable occurance. You don't need The Bible to see why homosexuality when praticed en masse would be a negative thing, heck even Darwin showed that. </p>
<p>P.S. Christians do know about evolutionary theory, just in case some thought otherwise. :)</p>
<p>If Brown is dominated by ppl who would viciously attack a person no based on the fact that they oppress another person, but simply have a view that is different, then perhaps it isn't the most open a.k.a. place. :( Because ppl who are truly liberal respect other viewpoints and don't insult others bc they have a different view, mindless insulting others and especially someone else's religion is close minded wrong. And i really take offensive to the asumption that bc someone disagrees with homosexuality means they treat them wrong, bc THAT is NOT what CHRIST taught. </p>
<p>Here's another Bible verse: "Treat others the way you want to be treated."
Real Christians do this and would never mistreat or demean a gay person. And i am a Real Christian.</p>
<p>This thread is hilarious.</p>
<p>Ehhh nm.......</p>
<p>How can I tell you the wrongs of claiming that we are expressing hatred towards a view that expresses hatred? Who is really wronged here?</p>
<p>I'm not going to go through and debunk your trivial and convoluted arguments about Darwinism and the Bible having one meaning only, interpreted of course by fallible men. I don't have the verbal moxy to counter arguments so tired or so elementarily incorrect. </p>
<p>But I will say this.
Do you know what it feels like to have who you are, your being, and the expression of your feelings, considered morally wrong? I don't think you do. And I think it would fall strongly under the category of "treating someone wrong"</p>
<p>So yes, your view that homosexuality is wrong is a view and an expression of intolerance and hatred. It affects gay people because it creates a fabric of non-acceptance in society. Acceptance is important to how people are treated and how they exist. So when you claim that the intolerance that is occurring is towards you, you are really saying, "i punched you and you had the guts to call me on it"</p>
<p>
[quote]
trivial and convoluted arguments about Darwinism and the Bible having one meaning only
[/quote]
</p>
<p>that's why I just deleted my post about being practiced in blasting apologetics (if you can even call Dbate an apologist). didn't figure this one was worth it ya know?</p>
<p>sometimes ya gotta cut 'em loose. </p>
<p>it's like talking to a sock</p>
<p>Hey maybe Brown would be good for said person. Kind of like that 30 Days show but for 4 years instead.</p>
<p>More than being angry I think it is really sad that some ppl can't see beyond their own bias, you are demeaning me bc I said that i have no problem with gay ppl would never treat them differently, but that i morally disagree with it?
I feel really sorry that such ppl hold these views bc if you knew me, you would know that i am friends with gay ppl i never make fun of them and would never treat them any different. I just hope one day you will look beyond your own view to try to see another perspective, bc ultimately GOD loves us all and I just hope HE blesses you! :) Because as Christians we show love to all, regardless of opinion or orientation of whatever. May THE LORD bless you!</p>
<p>Likewise, I would like you to see beyond a literal interpretation of the Bible and accept people, morally, as God made them. If God is infallible, and being queer is immoral, why have I been created this way? That was Christ's real message. Love thy neighbor. Treat others how you would be treated, as you mentioned before. You cannot speak to this point because you do not know what it is like to have who you are be perceived as a pockmark on society and morality. </p>
<p>When you morally disapprove of who someone is, you ARE treating them differently and you ARE demeaning them because you are seeing them as the immoral other. That's a terrible place to be. What most people want in life is just to be loved and accepted and you are actively choosing to work against that through your chosen beliefs. Gay people simply want to be accepted for who they are, and receive equal treatment under the law -- two things most straight people (save racism) don't have to think twice about. That is the only "gay agenda." So when people don't accept your view, they aren't being intolerant, they are sticking up for their human rights because your view violates them to the core.</p>
<p>Dbate-- despite whatever you may think, your determination that gay people are both knowing sinners and wrongdoers from the perspective of "science" (your "evolution" looks like "social Darwinisms", one of the greatest popular abuses of more complex science) unwillingly causes you to treat someone different and to consider them different.</p>
<p>It is impossible to see someone as wrong in such a fundamental way and completely switch that off when interacting with them. Simply hoping that your god will prevail and that they'll understand what's wrong about them is smug, condescending, and indicative that you have judged them. Christianity also teaches you not to judge fellow man, yet I see Christians look upon the "sinner" with sadness, pity, and in the worst cases, utter disdain.</p>
<p>You may be repeating messages of love to all, but you've also made arguments motivated by hate.</p>
<p>You may think there is one correct interpretation of the Bible, yet many factions exists even amongst Christians, all of whom teach the same Bible with very different ideas. Jewish sages teach that to simply read the Bible for words and not seeking infinite meanings in its endless wisdom is essentially to not read Bible at all. You should consider this idea when asserting that you're quite positive your religious view is correct. Pluralism is the fabric that holds civilization together.</p>
<p>Homosexuality exists in all species. It exists in species both ancient and novel. Your concern that they may hold back desirable traits (as though homosexuality could possibly have been "breded into" society) is unfounded and almost laughable in a world facing a resource crisis due to worldwide overpopulation.</p>
<p>You say you treat them the same, but do you respect them? If you cannot respect a person completely as they are, then no, you're not treating them the same. If you don't think your arrogance and self-righteousness is apparent, you're very sadly mistaken-- it's easily identifiable in your internet writings, it's not as hidden as you think in your real-life interactions. Would you offer them equal protection under the law? Would you offer them legal forms of marriage that bestow upon them the same legal rights as a same sex couple? Would you allow them to adopt an unwanted child and raise that child in a loving home?</p>