Business Schools, taking the easy way out? or smart move?

Parent Cafe
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<p>My son is a high school student and he wants to go into the business field. Specifically, he would like to maybe try Accounting. We live in NY so I am a big believer in the SUNY System. Not that there is anything wrong with a good private school, but in the accounting field, you do not get any more money really from the Big Four, or any firm for that matter if you graduate from SUNY Buffalo, or Cornell. You may get the first interview etc, but in terms of bottom line dollars, they do not really pay that much more It is not like law school, where if you gradutate from Harvard you come out making 150k, but if you go to a low ranked law school, you come out making 50k. Accounting does not work that way. Why, I do not know, but it does not. </p>

<p>Anyway, I have researched many schools, and some of the SUNY schools you need to maintain a minimum GPA of 3.0 to graduate from the Business School. If not, you get booted out, and you have to find a new major. This is done after the sophmore year. There are other SUNY schools such as Oswego, Plattsburgh, and Geneseo, where if you get into the Business School, you need a 2.0 to graduate. You do not get kicked out if you fall below a 3.0 etc. Just to note, all of the Schools mentioned are accredited, and all have good recruiting. The Big 4 go to all of these schools. You need a good GPA to get an internship, but they recruit at all of the schools, not just Binghamton, Albany, and Buffalo.</p>

<p>That said, why should my son go to a Albany, Buffalo, etc and if he falls below a 3.0 he has to major in Psychology, or Sociology? Do not get me wrong, if my son got a 2.0 or 2.3 or even 2.5 in his major, at that point, he has to look in the mirror and say, hey, this accounting thing is not for me. However, if he is a 2.75 or 2.85 student in the major, why in the world should he give up Accounting? I totally "get it" that life is pressure and jobs are pressure, however, sometimes in life you have to work the system too, and if that means saying hey let me go to school A where I can get a 2.75 and get a degree, why should I go to school B and get the same GPA and get thrown out of the Business school and not get a Business Degree. To me, it is a no brainer, but maybe I am missing something. </p>

<p>First, that is not a terrible GPA for a hard major and second, maybe he had a terrible professor, and got a C in a course, and that one or two poor grades put him under the 3.0 mark. What is also important to note is, in the upper level Accounting courses, if you read carefully, you must take them at the University that you are going to graduate from. You cannot go to a CC college, or even a 4 year school and take the class.</p>

<p>Believe me, It is not always the professors fault, however you do hear horror stories about the professor that speaks terrible English, or the professor that simply cannot teach and expects you to learn auditing on your own. Some students can do that, others cannot and if not, the GPA suffers.</p>

<p>My one and only goal is to educate my son on these policies, and let him make the decision. When the time comes, he will be a big boy, and he will have to make the decision. I just want to lay everything out for him so he is not blindsided and he has to be a Psych major simply becuase his GPA is 2.80 and not 3.0. Heck, he can still go to a decent grad school with a 2.8 and pass the CPA exam. It is not as though he is pulling 2.2's.</p>

<p>Thanks, love to hear your thoughts. </p>

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<p>In most states, you have to study for a fifth year to become a CPA anyway, right?</p>

<p>In any case, yes, being able to major in accounting if you want to be an accountant is good.</p>

<p>I have no idea where the Big4 recruit, however. You probably won’t get in to any of those with a sub-3.0 GPA in any case, as an FYI.</p>

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<p>-The Big 4 and other good firms may recruit from all the SUNY schools, the question is how many students do they hire from each school – I’m guessing the higher ranked the school, the greater percentage of students get picked up by the top firms. </p>

<p>-And to become a CPA these days a student needs 150 credits which often necessitates a fifth year (generally for a one year MS in Accounting). Some students with lots of APs can get the 150 credits in 4 years.</p>

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<p>My D is a CPA for a Big4 accounting firm in a major city (but not NYC). She currently helps out with recruiting activities at the universities located near her city. According to her, her firm cares much less about the school (from which one gets a degree) than it does about the GPA in one’s accounting classes. When she interviewed for her internship/job, she was told that her firm did not interview candidates with a GPA less than 3.5.</p>

<p>It’s a pretty competitive environment for those who want to work for the Big 4. If you’re interested, there’s a very knowledgeable poster in the Business Major forum (taxguy) who has several threads on this very topic. </p>

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<p>There are plenty of second tier and regional accounting firms that have fantastic and smart CPA’s working for them. But the point about getting top grades, especially in accounting classes, is of the utmost importance. Accounting, while not rocket science, is a mental grind and does take some pretty good brainpower and a lot of hard work in order to be successful. I’d posit, like the others, that the school is not as important as the good grades. It seems that a 3.0 should not be the floor if you want to be an accountant.</p>

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<p>Maintaining the high college GPA is a must in many fields. One of them a pre-med. Every pre-med knows that if college GPA is below 3.6, then the chance of getting into Med. School is close to none.
As one of the points of discussion with your kid, I would mention also, that college GPA is often the factor when looking for a job (even after Grad. School). I have an MBA and I was asked numerous times about my college GPA even after almost 30 years of experience in my field. So maintaining the high college GPA is not only very possible, but also is very desirable for the kid’s future even very far future.<br>
Think about this way. If one is paying the same great amount of money for something, isn’t it better made of gold than tin? The price is exactly the same, it is up to a student to make it gold or to make it tin.</p>

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<p>I have to agree with the above. There are some schools that will allow you to carry a lower GPA through a business program but even if it’s technically permitted it can still be a risky move in terms of recruiting. The GPA line isn’t necessarily a cutoff where everything above it is treated as being the same – though the CPA exam is pretty much like that (no one knows or cares if you pass the CPA exam by the skin of your teeth or if you ace every section – once you have it, you have it).</p>

<p>Another concern that I would have is that even if the school allows you to graduate with the major with a 2.75 or something, they might not admit you into their graduate program/5th year for those who need that for the 150 credit-hour requirement. That’s something I would definitely check out because it can vary from school to school what the policy is and how strictly they’ll enforce it. It may be perfectly OK or it may be a barrier so that’s worthy of further study if the student wants to use such a program to meet the hour requirement.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t spend too much time trying to work the system. As the other posters note, being able to squeak by with a lower than average GPA isn’t necessarily a benefit because of that competition aspect for internships and jobs.</p>

<p>(It’s worth noting that not all firms are as strict as the Big Four, but because of their size they tend to recruit more heavily than other CPA / professional services firms. It might be helpful if possible to shoot for that exacting standard even if you know you don’t want to work there or even apply, rather than rely on some college’s GPA policy to be the standard).</p>

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<p>All advice above is spot on - 3.5 GPA is minimum for Big Four and many other firms in order to be considered. Also, as noted above Big Four may recruit but won’t hire as many candidates as they might from a better school. Look where students get internships/who comes to campus to recruit. </p>

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<p>All are valid points, but I want to play devils advocate. First, if GPA is very important, which I agree 100% why not go to a less competitive school?? Why go to Binghamton for instance, bust your but, and get a 2.75 gpa when you can go to Oswego and get a 3.25 or a 3.5 GPA?? I realize that nothing is guaranteed, and Oswego is not a walk in the park. Lets face it, auditing is auditing, but I think we can assume that Binghamton is the harder program. I realize that there may be more recruiting from Binghamton, but the other SUNY’S have alot of recruiting as well.</p>

<p>Finally, lets say someone did squeak by technically with a 2.5 or a 2.75 GPA. First, you can get into a grad school. It may not be the best, but if you want to shell out the money, you can find one believe me. Second, at least the person with a 2.5 GPA will have a BS degree in accounting and can do tax returns on the side etc. I know that person will never be a CPA, but they can get a job in a business related field, and do taxes on the side. If you chose the more competitve route, and get kicked out, what do you do?? Major in Sociology, or Psychology at that point??</p>

<p>I agree with all of the above, I just wanted to throw this out there. </p>

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<p>I’m not sure that it’s valid to assume that it’s harder to get a 3.5 in accounting at Binghampton than Oswego. Why would you assume that?</p>

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<p>Trust me I know alof of folks who have gone to both schools and on the whole, Binghamton is alot harder. It is like saying why do you assume Wharton Business School is harder than Suny Brockport? Because it is!! I am not being sarcastic, but that is the way it is.</p>

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<p>You do not need to have a BS in Accounting to do tax returns on the side. This statement is completely divorced from reality. And the person who did my parents taxes for years was in fact- a clinical psychologist who retired from her practice and opened a tax/financial planning service for seniors. She had a fantastic command of the tax code btw.</p>

<p>I think the idea that you’re encouraging someone to shoot for a 2.5 in accounting is crazy. The number of highly rigorous courses for an undergrad accounting major is small. The rest of the GPA will be made up of whatever fluff courses the kid decides to take if, in fact, he wants the easy way out. Take “buyer behavior” instead of Corporate Finance. Take “Geology for Poets”. Take a marketing class offered by the Recreation Studies department.</p>

<p>You don’t need to be a brainiac to graduate with a solid GPA in accounting if you don’t want a rigorous and analytical grounding.</p>

<p>My corporation would rather a hard-working, ambitious and intellectually curious psychology major over a “do as little as possible” accounting/business major any day. We can teach someone how to do a discounted cash flow analysis or understand where something belongs on an income statement or balance sheet. There’s no way we can teach work ethic to a 22 year old college graduate if their goal in college was to squeak by.</p>

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<p>Will he live up to expectations? If he is expected to have a greater than 3.0 GPA, will he do that? But if only expected to be above 2.0, will he live up to that?</p>

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<p>OK, and how many of the folks you know studied accounting at those places? Maybe one is much harder than the other, but that’s not obvious to me.</p>

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<p>First of all, nobody is saying squeak by. Second, you need a 3.0 in the major, not overall so if you do take basket weaving, it does not matter.</p>

<p>My point is that there are alot of accounting courses that are extremely difficult such as intermediate 1 and 2. We are not talking about high school balance sheet accounting here so lets say you do bust your butt but fall just shy of a 3.0 gpa, are you saying I should go into Pyschology?? Really??</p>

<p>I have a freind of mine that had a gpa of 2.82 to be exact from plattsburgh, went to cw post for his masters, and passed his gpa on on the second try. If he went to albany, or binghamton and got the same gpa, he would have out of the business school, and maybe gone into another field, Maybe. So nobody is saying shoot for a 2.5, hell, shoot for a 4.0, but not every student will get a 3.0 so what is wrong with getting a 2.75. Are you saying 2.75 students cannot be cpa’s??</p>

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<p>If a kid finds Intermediate 1 and 2 so excruciatingly difficult that it will make the business major drop below a B average (not an A- average, but a B average) then yeah- maybe finding something else to study is the way to go.</p>

<p>Some people don’t have the aptitude for accounting. it doesn’t make them dumb- it means they don’t have the aptitude for accounting. Why wouldn’t you encourage your kid to study something he’s really good at (and is motivated to work hard at to excel) rather than pick something you think he’s going to end up pulling C’s right out of the gate???</p>

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<p>“All are valid points, but I want to play devils advocate. First, if GPA is very important, which I agree 100% why not go to a less competitive school??”
-Do not count on the fact that it will be easier to get a high GPA at less competitive school. As always I can only refer to pre-med as the most familiar to me. This is a common mistake among pre-meds also, thinking that going to a less competitive school is a sure way to get a hihger GPA than at more competitive school. “Competitive” refers to admission, not to the class’s difficulty level. In addition, there are plenty of the very top kdis, valedictorians from private HSs that for various reasons decided not to apply to the top colleges. Very smart decision for those in majors where presitge of the collegel does not matter. I am not saying that it does not matter for a future CPA, this is up to you to figure out. The most common reason for the very top kids to attend in-state publics and some privates is very high Merit award (full tuition or close or even full ride). And if the plan is to attend a Grad. School and prestige does not count (which is the caseof Med. Schools, again, do not know about accounting), then why spend money for UG, it is better save it for the Grad. School.<br>
As an example, vast majority (most or even all?) in D’s Honors college at her state public were valedictorians with huge number from private HSs. If you think that all of them had easy time, sorry, to dissapoint, not by far. In fact, many were derailed from their original goal after the very first semester of the freshman year and in the class that all of them took an AP in HS. Surprise!! Not easy by any measure. </p>

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<p>Good point, and I do believe that at the end of the day the child will decide, not a parent, I personally laugh at helicpter parents so I agree with you, do something you like. What I am saying is that sometimes you may not do well in a course or 2, lets say intermediate, but you may love auditing, or forensic accounting so why not push through (if that is what the student wants to do) and see if you can do well.</p>

<p>Like I said originally, if you are pulling 2.0,2.2 etc, yes, you should look in the mirror and and say, hey this is not for me. I am talking about the borderline case where you get a 2.85 or a 2.75 gpa. Why give it up if you do not want to?? Why let some university admissions office decide?? Again, I am talking about that 2.75 or 2.85 student. </p>

<p>Again, when the time comes, I hope my child has a 3.5 gpa, but I always like to be prepared and take the worst case scenario</p>

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<p>I agree with your assessment. Believe me, you can find harder professors at some SUNY schools than at Harvard or Yale. Yes, there are students that say, hey, why should I spend 60k at a private school when I can spend 25 k at a SUNY school and they go to a suny school, but I would think that is not the norm. </p>

<p>On the whole, Carnegie Mellon is harder than SUNY ALBANY. Just as an example. It just is. The students on the whole have higher gpa’s and sat scores, and the rigor is unbelievable. </p>

<p>I hope my son gets into Wharton, heck, that would be great. Shoot for the stars, I just think sometimes, some kids get a kick in the butt and should go where they will excel the most, not where it is the most prestigious.</p>

<p>By the way, and you can teach me something ( I am not in the medical field), isnt a John Hopkins harder rigor wise than lets say a much lower ranked school?? Just curious Thanks</p>

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<p>Perhaps this is a side point, but when you’re talking about Big 4 recruiting in any field, they will ask about GPA, they may also ask about test scores. When my son was hired as a consultant (not accounting) by one of these firms, they asked about his SAT’s and even his LSAT’s. These were questions asked when he went for his interview at the firm, after being screened on recruiting day at the college. </p>

<p>They also ask about other interests and experiences, including travel and hobbies! (My son thought he had a conversation extender b/c he could talk baseball stats, i.e., sabermetrics.) They asked why his experience as a debater in high school might be useful in his job. He had what I thought was a good answer, which he says was something like this. “As a debater, I read a huge amount of stuff. Often very complicated. I could take an academic article, digest it and write a summary and critique in 30 minutes, and it would be very accurate.” That’s a skill for life.</p>

<p>BTW/ at some universities a student may not name a major until their sophomore year. The B-school may be heavily impacted, i.e., potentially over-enrolled, and so they impose the 3.0 GPA as a weed-out of applicants. At my university, that’s where the social science majors often come from: wannabe business majors who didn’t have a 3.0 to be admitted to the business college.</p>