Cal vs. Chicago vs. Michigan vs. UCLA

College Search & Selection
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<p>Da' Bears fan:</p>

<p>of course, many publics are outstanding institutions, (including UI-UC, UMich, UNCC, UVa, Cal, UCLA), and offer OOS students top notch [nearly] everything, including big time sports (I believe school spirit is important). But, I do not believe any of them are worth OOS tuitoin, particularly if a resident of one of those states. (Of course, an Echols at UVa, or a Robertson at Chapel Hill would change my pov. But, then PR says that its easier to get into Duke than UNCC from OOS.) It's not that the publics aren't as good, and they could even be better, but it ain't worth the price, IMO.</p>

<p>I know that the UC's are not charitable with FinAid to OOS kids, so I assume UMich is similar. So, reasons I think $45k at Chicago is better spent:</p>

<p>1) Core -- sure, you can do your own core even at Brown, but its not the same when you are the only one doing it.</p>

<p>2) Smaller classes -- Some Frosh intro classes at Cal and UCLA (800+ students in one class) are nearly as large as the entire Frosh matriculants to UofC (1,000 per class, 4,000 undergrads total). Since UMich has a larger undergrad pop than either Cal or UCLA, I can only assume that its intro classes are even larger.</p>

<p>3) Econ is number 1 or 2 at Chicago (MIT claims number one, and likley true). Cal is usually a top 5 econ program. </p>

<p>4) Unlike the publics, Chicago is not a work hard - play hard school (i.e., party scene) ....more like a work hard school. Nevertheless, the kids still enjoy themselves in Hyde Park.</p>

<p>5) FinAid -- with their finaid policies, private schools can be less costly than public schools, even in-state, at least for real low income. But, even for middle class kids, a private can be less expensive than a public OOS.</p>

<p>6) Smaller size means more opportunities to hang with professors, and do research.</p>

<p>7) SEMINAR style classes, in contrast to a large lecture hall with 500 students. (Of course, many students prefer to remain somewhat anonymous and prefer large lectures.) </p>

<p>8) Diversity -- UoC has students from all 50 states and an international contingent, whereas the publics (rightfully so) pick the vast majority of students from in-state app.</p>

<p>9) Something like 90% of the UoC faculty live in Hyde Park, and you are more likely to run into them at the market than on campus.</p>

<p>All purchases offer value....it's just my opinion that paying OOS tuition ($40k+ at Cal, and $37k in Ann Arbor) is not as great a value as can be obtained by paying a little more ($45k) and attending an equally prestigious private school. Or, in the OP's case, going to one of the state flagships if he wants big.</p>

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<p>How do the alumni networks compare at the four universities?</p>

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<p>Slipper, I you misunderstood me. I agree with you. Paying more money to attend a university like Michigan (or Dartmouth for that matter) when you can attend an equally good Cal for less than half the price is indeed "ridiculous". My point was that IF one were to go ahead and leave the state and spend that extra money anyway, Michigan is as good a choice as all but 5 universities.</p>

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<p>Blubayou, here's where I disagree with you:</p>

<p>1) "The Core". Many students do not want it. That's wahy many students shy away from Chicago and that's why many students love Brown. </p>

<p>2) Smaller classes. Michigan has a handfull (literally fewer than 10 classes) of class annually that have more than 400 student. Most intro level classes have 100-300 students, which is stull huge, but at that level, you really don't need professor guidance. We are talking about Psych 101 or Political Science 101. If you need professor assistance at that level, there's something wrong. And furthermore, Chicago also has classes with over 100 students. Let us face it, whether a class has 100 students or 300 students doesn't make a difference. You aren't going to get the professor's attention...not when that professor has the careers of 4 or 5 PhD students in her/his hands. So yes, classes at Chicago are smaller, but not significantly so. Let me put it this way, Chicago's faculty is as interested in interacting with undergraduate students as the faculty at any major research university!</p>

<p>3) Econ at Chicago is indeed one of the top 2 or 3 in the World. But there is very little an undergrad can benefit from what separates a top 2 or 3 Econ program like Chicago and a top 10 or 11 Econ program like Michigan. </p>

<p>4) I don't get this point.</p>

<p>5) Most private schools at the level of Chicago mainly offer need-based aid. As fae as we know, the OP has not received any aid from any university.</p>

<p>6) Michigan has more research opportunities than most universities. The UROP (undergraduate reseach opportunity) is a program designed to connect close to 1,000 freshmen and sophomores to porphessors for a two year research assignment. And like I said, generally speaking, professors at Chicago and Michigan (and any major research university) do not have the time to "hang out" with undergrads. </p>

<p>7) I guess you don't know this, but I might as well say it. Michigan is the first German-style university in the US. By "German style", I mean Michigan is the first university in the US to follow the German university system, which means seminars. I do not make this up, you can look into it. Cornell, Stanford, Chicago and several other schools using the German system modelled their academic systems after Michigan. Until this day, most Michigan classes are stull taught in a Seminar style. And like I said, only a handful of classes at Michigan have more than 400 classes. Don't make it sound like 500+ classes at Michigan are common because they aren't. Most classes have fewer than 300 students and most classes that sophomores, juniors and seniors take have fewer than 50 students. </p>

<p>8) Again, you don't know much about Michigan. Cal and CULA are 90% in-state. Right now, close to 40% of undergraduate students at Michigan are from OOS, including 5% that are international. I realize that 80% of Chicago undergrads are in-state and that 7% are international, but when you consider that Chicago has 4,000 undergrads, that means 3,000 out of staters (compared to 8,000 at Michigan) and 300 international undergraduate students (compared to 1,200 at Michigan). At Michigan, tudents come from all 50 states too as well as from 130 countries. There are currently 700 undergrads from California at Michigan. Over 1,300 undergrads hail from NY and over 1,000 from Illinois. Another 14 states have more than 100 undergrads at Michigan. Hell, Michigan even managed to get close to 10 undergrads from Wyoming and South Dakota for crying out loud! LOL </p>

<p>9) Over 90% of Michigan professors live in Ann Arbor...and you are very likely to run into them anywhere! LOL</p>

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<p>9) Over 90% of Michigan professors live in Ann Arbor...and you are very likely to run into them anywhere! LOL</p>

<p>actually, more and more professors are moving to the smaller neighboring towns (Dexter, Saline, etc...). In my neighborhood alone, there are 4 UofM professors.</p>

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<p>I would say that Michigan is not worth the extra money compared to UCLA. Second, you said that you did not want a dead social scene, so I wouldn't go to Chicago. This leaves you UCLA and Cal. </p>

<p>I would tell you which one to go to if I knew myself, but personally I am torn between these two at this point. I would argue that academics at UCLA and Cal (esp in econ) are pretty much identical, despite rankings consistently ranking Cal higher due to grad programs. So I think you should choose between these two based solely on which place you think you'd enjoy more.</p>

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<p>Neo Yoyo, I'd say that Chicago is probably one of the weakest top universities at fostering great alumni relations. Of those 4 schools, I'd say Michigan has the best alumni network, followed by UCLA and Cal.</p>

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<p>Drew, Saline and Dexter are suburbs of Ann Arbor. I know many friends who live in those towns and they spend most of their time in Ann Arbor. At any rate, I'd say that 90% of Michigan profs live in Ann Arbor proper with the remaining 10% living in those nearby towns you mentioned. Ann Arbor is a very special town and professors live living there. Even Bill Ford (CEO of Ford Motor) choses to live in Ann Arbor because of the quality of life.</p>

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<p>I know Dexter and Saline are suburbs (i live in dexter btw ;))</p>