<p>Of course there are some who can – even if they’re rarer than the so-called “science and math geniuses” that seem to abound at every good high school these days. That’s exactly the type of thing I studied in the US and Modern European AP History courses I took in high school in the early 1970’s; I still have all the books I had to read on – for example – differing historical interpretations of the revolutions of 1848. It was the furthest thing from memorizing factual detail, and the AP exams had nothing to do with that either. The courses weren’t methodologically different from the history courses I took in college, although those were generally much narrower in scope. I don’t think any of this has changed. And the same is true of English literature courses.</p>
<p>But I do truly believe that literature and history are far more difficult than science and math, at least in the sense of the numbers of students who truly excel at them in terms of perceptiveness and the ability to express their thoughts at a sophisticated level at a young age (which is why I’ve always thought the way that some people look down on humanities students is laughable), so I don’t necessarily disagree with some of what you’re saying.</p>
<p>If so-called top colleges are really easier than the most rigorous high schools - and the quotes from the linked article match what alumni of my D’s school say about their college experiences - is that not an indication that something is wrong at those colleges? Shouldn’t a so-called top college be challenging the most intelligent and well-prepared students in its student body?</p>
<p>I’m reminded again of the much-maligned (on CC) Deresiewicz article.</p>
<p>We may be quibbling on the weasel word “many” that I chose. Of course, some can, perhaps “many” can, but I suspect a fair number do not. Moreover, I would be surprised if most people’s understanding of certain pieces of literature does not expand when they encounter that literature again over the years since high school.</p>
<p>I have no quarrel with that statement. One thing that always puzzled me in high school English literature classes was how anyone could have expected us to truly comprehend on anything more than an intellectual level novels and plays and poems that were primarily about concepts that I (at least) had no experience with in life, like romantic love and sex and marriage!</p>
<p>Kind of like a question I still remember getting at my interview with a young woman at Harvard in 1971, when I was 16 years old: “What do you think is the definition of a perfect marriage?” I was simultaneously horrified, flabbergasted, and speechless. (Perhaps particularly because whatever that means, my parents certainly didn’t have one.) No wonder I didn’t get in!</p>
<p>annasdad, I don’t think there is such a thing as “the level of difficulty” of a top college. For a student at good universities with graduate programs, the level of difficulty is what the student makes it, by choice of courses. Thus, there are many different levels. My university offers something like 6000 courses. I think there are roughly 15 quadrillion different course schedules that are possible for a student; some would make no sense, admittedly, but a student can really set his/her own level of difficulty. </p>
<p>I don’t have a lot of respect for hyper-prepared prep school students who opt for courses that are comparatively easy for them. There are plenty of options that could challenge them, at any “top” college.</p>
<p>I believe the MIT student interviewed was in his first year. Because of pass/fail and because it’s become harder to pass out of classes (many classes require an exam, not just a 5 on the AP,) a lot of hyper-prepared people coast the first semester while taking the general institute requirements. Undoubtedly, that student would have had to learn something new the second year at least.</p>
<p>One of the first things I remember learning in high school when we lobbied a teacher to teach us medieval history was different historian’s opinions about how the beginning of the middle ages should be determined. That was my first lesson that history is not fact, it’s interpretation and there is rarely one right answer. My kids had teachers that did the same. My younger son wrote a paper about Lafayette based on his own writings and those of contemporaries. When he wrote about the Cuban Missile Crisis one of his sources was transcripts of the tapes. With the Regents and AP having document based essays, I think most history classes are giving students more primary sources.</p>
<p>Donna, what a strange question. I remember nothing about my interview, though I believe I had one.</p>
<p>My son found his first year at Carnegie Mellon pretty easy, he had a couple of gen ed requirements to get out of the way. And I know that he had to start with a level of comp sci that had some review, because the one above that was clearly over his head. He was working very hard pretty quickly though.</p>
<p>Some of it depends on major. Even at magnet schools, you’re not going to be doing engineering. If you study engineering in college, it’s going to be new. If you do chem or bio or even math (especially applied,) it is easier to coast, particularly at schools with less requirements.</p>
<p>My son was taught AP Euro as a sophomore by the high school football coach who caught that assignment for the first time at a rink-dink rural public high school which was our only realistic option. Given that my son was not a scholar, and the coach was not PhD in history or particularly familiar with the material, the fact that he muddled his way to a 4 on the A.P. exam suggested to me that a good memory can go a long way even in AP history. He repeated it a junior in AP U.S. with a better teacher but worse study habits as the density (pun intended) of the high school social scene exerted a gravitational pull away from academics exacerbating father / son battles. I would ground him for a couple of weeks before A.P. tests and again before finals. He would perform respectably and earn freedom for the first part of the next semester and the cycle would repeat. Since you only need about 50% to 60% correct on the test for high score, knowing a lot of facts to do well on the multiple choice can make up for mediocre essays. Much to my chagrin, he took a strategic rather than an academic approach to AP history tests. I am still hoping for his frontal cortex development to accelerate, but I love him anyway.</p>
<p>What is the definition of a perfect marriage? A chimera. I don’t know any perfect people or of any imperfect people becoming perfect in union with another, but then I am more of a cynic than a romantic. I probably would not have said that when I was 16 though.</p>
<p>With one exception, it’s the only question I recall from any of the interviews I had with any of the colleges I applied to, either with alumni or on campus.* I’m sure I must have come up with something in response, but I have no idea what it was. I also remember that when I told my mother about it afterwards, she was so outraged that she was ready to march right in and give the interviewer a piece of her mind. Thankfully, I talked her out of it!</p>
<p>*The other question I remember, from my on-campus interview at Yale, also when I was 16, and also with a young woman: “Would you like a kiss?” Fortunately, I was so taken aback that I kept a straight face and kept my mouth shut long enough for her to pull a bag of Hershey’s kisses out of a drawer. There, unlike Harvard, I got in.</p>
<p>The Yale Alumni Association coaches alums about how to conduct off campus interviews. From my reading, neither Harvard question nor the Yale question you received are of the type approved these days. I suppose one virtue of wild questions is to see who can improvise or whose mother can’t be controlled. :)</p>
<p>Just one comment–when a student who comes from a challenging magnet or private school program says that college is “easier,” he’s not necessarily saying that it is less intellectually challenging or engaging. He may just be talking about the workload (and especially, his ability to handle the workload compared to other students with different high school experiences).</p>
<p>^^and if you are studying what you love instead of being forced to complete busywork for a grade - that’s easier.</p>
<p>annasdad: I agree with Quantmech that college is what you make of it. I don’t see it as Yale’s responsibility to force an education on its students. The students have the opportunity for a world class education but they have to want it and do it for themselves. Otherwise imho it is a pretty meaningless exercise.</p>
<p>I haven’t read Deresiewicz and am not sure exactly what he is talking about in this quote.</p>
<p>I could see that, Hunt. I think that the difference in the time spent in class in college vs. high school (by itself) could ease things up a bit, for a student who has had every moment packed in high school.</p>
<p>I thought college was easier too, not so much because high school had been so much work, but because there was so much more flexibility in college. I didn’t have a 5 page English paper due every Monday morning. And as alh points out the fact that half my courses were in a field I loved also made everything seem like less work.</p>
<p>They really had to stay up late EVERY night/morning to work on their problem sets. No one can finish on his own unless the person is a true genius, which according to S1 there are about half a dozen or so such kids every year. Caltech encourages students to work collaboratively on problem sets, but in reality, these kids really have to work together to have a shot. It is mind boggling to think that first quarter introductory science and math classes have problem sets that frustrate kids who competed at the USAMO level and already took third-year level courses at other colleges.</p>
<p>Believe me, they really want to sleep.</p>
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<p>Every once a blue moon, they will play some Super Smash Brothers. As one Techie put it recently – “You really can’t appreciate how hard Caltech is unless you’ve lived through the Core.”</p>
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<p>I remember a TJ student said that TJ alums find colleges easier with the exception of Caltech.</p>
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<p>Unfortunately (or fortunately), there is no escaping the Core at Caltech. It is hard, period.</p>
<p>I completely agree that college is what you make of it and that it is not Yale’s responsibility to force an education on its students. My point is that all the hype about the wonderful education you get at these hyper-selective colleges is just that - hype. You can get just as good an education at any reputable college - perhaps better at some less-prestigious schools that don’t do what Yale (and I would suspect other expensive boutique schools) does, i.e., spoon-feed and baby you once you get in. In his article, Deresiewicz compares the squishy “requirements” at Yale with those at a much-less-selective school - he uses Cleveland State as the example - where there are real requirements and students who don’t meet them don’t pass.</p>
<p>annasdad, it’s interesting that you have such different feelings and reactions to elite/selective/demanding high schools as opposed to colleges. I’m serious and honestly curious, not snarky here. What do you see as the differences between the two experiences? Do you think that a student who attended a highly selective/demanding high school program is better positioned to take advantage of finding a good education in college than students who attended more mainstream programs?</p>
No kidding. Their graduation rate is only 31%. So you think that means that those who manage to graduate from Cleveland State have received a better education than kids at Yale? Hmmm.</p>