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<p>The author of the article in question isn’t a long-time academic. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t listen to his opinion. But we need to read him critically. I don’t believe you are doing that.</p>
<p>edit: Being denied tenure at Yale doesn’t mean Yale is getting rid if inadequate professors. Getting tenure would be the surprise.</p>
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<p>Nine years is more than enough time to absorb the culture of a place.</p>
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<p>Oh, I get it. He has an axe to grind - but all the posters on this thread who are so eager to defend their alma maters (or their kids’) have none.</p>
<p>Thanks for enlightening me.</p>
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<p>If you had one iota of proof that it is standard operating procedure at elite schools for either a) students to routinely and consistently ignore deadlines for assignments and / or b) professors to not say a word and just accept late assignments with a “thank you, sir, may I have another” without any damage to grades, you’d have a point. Why you aren’t believing the posters on here who actually went to elite schools and / or have children at them – boggles the mind.</p>
<p>Whatever, Annasdad. I sure hope that your daughter’s hard work at IMSA pays off with acceptance to Cleveland State and not a “better” school, because I’m sure that’s why you sent her there.</p>
<p>Do the students described in the Harvard Magazine article sound like a bunch of slackers who are laying back and taking it easy to you? This is exactly the kind of student the admissions process at these schools selects for now: kids who are highly involved in multiple activities, and have significant achievements in several of them. They also have great grades and scores–most are at the top of their high school classes, and a bunch are from extremely competitive high schools. All of that is easily seen by anybody who looks at the stats.</p>
<p>But a single magazine article by one former junior faculty is enough to convince you that a majority of those driven, success-oriented kids turn into slackers once they make it into Yale? It’s silly, honestly.</p>
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<p>Again - read the thread. I’ve already answered this.</p>
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<p>I did not send her to IMSA to enable her to get into a better college. Once again, if you knew as much about IMSA as you think you know, you would know that the mission of the school nowhere mentions getting kids into good colleges - and those of us who volunteer at preview days and other admissions events are asked to emphasize that when we get college-related questions. I think it is a open question as to how helpful the school is at getting kids into highly selective colleges.</p>
<p>And I wouldn’t think of sending her to Cleveland State. I couldn’t afford the OOS tuition.</p>
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<p>At many elites that student would have talked their way into a higher level course. At many elites that student would have the opportunity to begin an independent work project under a professor’s supervision or to work in a lab. At elites there is no excuse for a student not being challenged other than the fact they don’t seek it out.</p>
<p>This above is true at many non-elites, too.</p>
<p>Sorry, gang, I’ve got to sign off for awhile - there’s this day job thing. Have fun while I’m away. I’ll try to address each and every one of your concerns when I return.</p>
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<p>Okay, just one more before I go.</p>
<p>This particular student apparently took enough high-level courses, and did well enough in them, to be accepted into a dual MD-PhD program at one of the most prestigious med school/research university combinations in the United States.</p>
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<p>Wait a minute - does that mean that wherever she winds up going to college, it’ll be on someone else’s dime? I thought you looked down on that sort of thing.</p>
<p>I suppose her education at IMSA is partially “on my dime” as an IL taxpayer, but I’m more than happy to pony up the funds for that since there’s no better use of my tax dollars than I can think of than educating young students with promise.</p>
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<p>Nicely played. If anyone says this is an insult (that little bit there about parents paying for their full-pay students being a bad lazy thing), then it can be passed off as just being a comment about how full-pay students and financial aid students attending school on someone else’s dime. Actually, this covers almost all students, since most are either being covered by their parents or are receiving some kind of aid.</p>
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<p>But did she use her undergraduate time as wisely as she could have? I still don’t see any excuse for saying you aren’t being challenged. I don’t see an “A” as evidence of intelligence or admission to any kind of program after a BS/BA as evidence of a student making the most of their undergraduate education. </p>
<p>I know several young people in MD/PhD programs and all of them took graduate level courses, did lab work and sometimes won Goldwater awards, did amazing extra-curriculars that had nothing whatsoever to do with science, and managed to fill up their time with various challenging activities. I think if they had told their parents they weren’t being “challenged” at college, the parents would have been pretty sharp with them.</p>
<p>Is this really just one of the innumerable threads on CC involving parents trying to convince themselves that elite schools aren’t worth the additional money it costs to go there? If so, I think most alums of elites and parents of kids there will tell you that it’s worth it if you can do it without driving yourself into huge debt–but that you can get a really excellent education elsewhere for lesser cost. I think there are people at middle income levels who probably shouldn’t send their kids to elite schools, because of the huge debt they’d have to incur. But for those who can afford full-pay without a big sacrifice, it’s worth it, and for people who can get significant need-based aid, it’s REALLY worth it.</p>
<p>annasdad,
(If I am to believe you, even though you are just an anonymous poster on the internet), your D is at fabulous high school: challenging to the hilt, not coddling, effective at teaching to the very very bright kids there. That is what you and she have chosen. Others might believe that such a school is a bad idea, just the wrong thing for their child.
She will be extremely well-prepared for whatever college she ends up attending. She might even be able to kick back a bit, as well as take more advanced courses than her peers.
She is also getting prestige for attending this particular HS, actually, just for getting admitted, and, as you would be quick to point out, for surviving.
Perhaps her grades and thus college admissions results will be a bit “impaired” by this choice (while I am just an anonymous poster on the internet, I also have direct experience with this), heck, she will have had a really amazing academic experience in HS. She is at a Caltech version of HS.
But there are many other types of HS out there!
And so are there many types of colleges.</p>
<p>My own D is at more of an Ivy type of HS- it offers a broad not pointy curriculum, is very very challenging, and the grade distribution is pretty brutal, and it is super-duper rigorous. She is going to be very well-prepared for an Ivy or top 10, but probably will not get in, due to the competitive nature of her school. So it goes. It does not make “sense”, really, but that is the way it works. She will go somewhere else, and do very well. And she has had a very rigorous and informative time in HS, to boot. How very fortunate. How would she have done grade-wise at a typical HS? Would she have learned as much? Would she get into different colleges? Would she handle college differently? Who knows!</p>
<p>What CC is all about is sharing experiences and ideas. We definitely do not all agree!!! But we do ask questions, And wonder about motives and biases. And welcome evidence that we are unaware of. Some people do change their opinions over time here; some do not.</p>
<p>My point is that schools and colleges are all somewhat different, and there are different philosophies galore. Follow your own path, and go for what matters to you. Some of it will make sense, some will not. The system is far from a pure meritocracy. So, just go for best opportunity that appeals to you that you are offered and that you can afford! The options out there are enormous. Prestige vs rigor may not make all that much sense, but so be it. CC is FULL of threads (like this one) about how nonsensical the rankings are, why we still follow all this stuff, even though we know it is hardly a representation of truth.</p>
<p>There are also many threads about STEM education, questioning the techniques and the emphasis, and some lauding, even worshipping it.</p>
<p>And Deresowiesz (sp) has been pretty well parsed on this forum, as well. Many have questioned his motives and experiences and the tone of his pieces in numerous threads on CC. He is a real “character”, and succeeds in getting much attention, that is for sure!</p>
<p>Let us just debate all this amicably and respectfully. I am always interested in another opinion, but will also question it, and expect to be questioned myself.
Peace, and good luck to you and your daughter, who is a mightily gifted student, and has a great future ahead of her, no doubt.</p>
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<p>This is what makes me want to tear my hair out. Getting into a particular college is the goal of HS. Getting into a prestigious post grad program is the goal of undergrad. Those goals may or may not have anything at all to do with getting an education. The degree may or may not mean something about you. At least that’s how I look at it.</p>
<p>I took German 1 at Harvard and at a community college. Both classes covered the same amount of grammar. The text book in the CC gave us a much more useful vocabulary for traveling in the country. The class at Harvard had us start reading a detective story (Der Richter und sein Henker) at some point in the second semester. The CC class got smaller as students who didn’t keep up dropped out, but the class did not slow down. most of the students had good reasons to learn German (one was an opera singer for example) and were quite dedicated.</p>
<p>So there were differences, but less drastic than one might think.</p>
<p>^^That is interesting!!!</p>
<p>Looked up the USNWR rankings for colleges with the highest 4-year grad rates. Slackers, all! 
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<p>Webb Institute 96%
Washington and Lee University 92%
Pomona College 91%
Williams College 91%
Bowdoin College 90%
College of the Holy Cross 90%
Princeton University 90%
University of Notre Dame 90%
Vassar College 90%
Amherst College 89%
Bucknell University 89%
Carleton College 89%
Davidson College 89%
Swarthmore College 89%
Wesleyan University 89%
Yale University 89%
Columbia University 88%
Dartmouth College 88%
United States Naval Academy 88%
University of Pennsylvania 88%
Babson College 87%
Boston College 87%
Duke University 87%
Georgetown University 87%
Harvard University 87%</p>
<p>Also, AnnasDad,
The Ivies do offer some of the very best financial aid out there for those whose family incomes are less than $100,000. Not all full rides. And the middle class does get squeezed out. But a very good percentage (30%ish, I believe) of the students at these schools are on financial aid. </p>
<p>Colleges do not run on fumes. The funds have to come from somewhere, i.e. someONE. Taxpayers are people, too. </p>
<p>My guess (forgive me for putting this together and speculating) that you must have a problem with private schools, generally, and that you believe in all those cliches about them being populated by spoiled rich preppies with trust funds. Think again!</p>
<p>I think he’s just having fun teasing Hunt.</p>