<p>jonathan1- you misinterpreted what a percentile is
90th percentile means that you are better than 90 percent of the class.</p>
<p>Sakky: I stand by my belief that the qualities a student brings to a college have much more to do with one's success than the college a student attends. But, this thread has nothing to do with that. In this thread, I'm trying to point out that Ivies favor the wealthy students who attend elite private high schools. This is evidenced by the extraordinary overrepresentation of students at Ivies who graduated from those elite high schools. </p>
<p>It would be an interesting experiment for the Ivies to not allow applications from private high school students for one year, taking applications only from public high school grads. The purpose of the experiment would be to see if, academically, the quality of that incoming freshman class would be any different than it usually is. I say this because some people on this thread argue that elite private high schools are drastically overrepresented at Ivies because those students are the academic "cream of the crop." </p>
<p>Such a thought process is an insult to highly qualified public school grads. The problem is that Ivy admissions offices have been favoring elite high school grads for so many years, that they automatically have an advantage over public school grads. Along with this comes discrimination based on socioeconmic status, since the "average guy" can't afford to send his child to an elite public school.</p>
<p>Of course there are exceptions to this, such as the few inner-city students who attend Ivies, underrepresented minorities or the recruited athletes and legacies from public schools. But when 30-40% of freshman classes at all Ivies come from a tiny number of elite private high schools, it is obvious that the wealthy have a distinct advantage.</p>
<p>don't forget that even attending a public school does not make one a "regular guy." Indeed, selection to any highly selective school is weighted heavily on wealth, regardless of private or public HS. In addition to high gpa, other admission criteria include ECs and high test scores. CB's own data show that high test scores are directly correlated with income. And, of course, participation in ECs means that one doesn't have to work a job as a grocery bagger to help support the family.</p>
<p>So, OP, don't blame the Ivies for the wealth angle. Up until a couple of years ago, admission to UVa was also primarily wealthy kids. :)</p>
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[quote]
Sakky: I stand by my belief that the qualities a student brings to a college have much more to do with one's success than the college a student attends. But, this thread has nothing to do with that. In this thread, I'm trying to point out that Ivies favor the wealthy students who attend elite private high schools. This is evidenced by the extraordinary overrepresentation of students at Ivies who graduated from those elite high schools. </p>
<p>It would be an interesting experiment for the Ivies to not allow applications from private high school students for one year, taking applications only from public high school grads. The purpose of the experiment would be to see if, academically, the quality of that incoming freshman class would be any different than it usually is. I say this because some people on this thread argue that elite private high schools are drastically overrepresented at Ivies because those students are the academic "cream of the crop." </p>
<p>Such a thought process is an insult to highly qualified public school grads. The problem is that Ivy admissions offices have been favoring elite high school grads for so many years, that they automatically have an advantage over public school grads. Along with this comes discrimination based on socioeconmic status, since the "average guy" can't afford to send his child to an elite public school.</p>
<p>Of course there are exceptions to this, such as the few inner-city students who attend Ivies, underrepresented minorities or the recruited athletes and legacies from public schools. But when 30-40% of freshman classes at all Ivies come from a tiny number of elite private high schools, it is obvious that the wealthy have a distinct advantage.
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<p>Bluebayou beat me to the punch, but basically, I would question the entire premise of your argument. You have stated that you believe that the success of Ivy students has more to do with the students themselves than with the Ivy schools. Now, couldn't the same be true in the case of wealthy students who go to private high schools and then go to Ivies - that what we are really looking at is the effect of wealth, as opposed to anything to do with the private high schools? </p>
<p>Let's be perfectly honest. You think that the Ivies are the only schools that have lots of wealthy kids. I think there is little dispute that the group of college bound kids * in general * consist of kids that are wealthier than the average kid. And the wealth effect shifts according to the strength of the school, Ivy or not. The average student at Berkeley or UCLA is richer than the average student at, say, San Francisco State or CalState Fullerton. The average student at the University of Michigan is richer than one at, say, Lake Superior State University. The average student at the University of Virginia is richer than at Virginia Stata University. (As bluebayou said, Virginia has been particularly notable for being a public school whose student body was and still is conspicuously wealthy). How is that any different? </p>
<p>The same can be said for the presence of private prep school students at the higher-end public schools. I am nearly certain that the number of elite prep school kids who go to Berkeley is larger than those who go to San Francisco State University. </p>
<p>But anyway, I asked before, I'll ask again. Why do you care so much? If, according to your logic, the Ivies don't offer any advantages anyway, then who really cares whether the process for getting into the Ivies is unfair?</p>
<p>even non-Ivy privates have wealthy kids. For example, ~65% of Colgate students are full pay, i.e,, top 5% income bracket in the country, more likely top 3%.</p>
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90th percentile means that you are better than 90 percent of the class.
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<p>Yes, I know.</p>
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Yes, but unfortunately we have no idea how competitive those high schools are. Good grief, look at how many kids NCSSM or TJHSST send to selective schools. The "public school" kids at Duke come from the very best high schools in the state- East Chapel Hill, Myers Park, Enloe, Raleigh Charter, etc. It's a bit like what sakky has said about elite colleges and the Rhodes Scholarship process (X=public, Y=private).</p>
<p> [quote] Let me tell you another story, again, about X. It has been asserted by some that, given X's sheer size, the top X students are just as good as the students at Y. For example, if you were to take the top 6500 students out of X's 23k undergrad student body, that top slice would be just as good as Y's 6500 undergrads. </p>
<p>But if that is really the case, then why does Y absolutely crush X on an absolute scale when it comes to winning major national awards, like the Rhodes Scholarship? Even with X's huge student body, X hasn't won a single Rhodes since the 2002-2003 academic year. This academic year alone, Y has won 8. </p>
<p>I believe I know why too. It's because Y Rhodes candidates have an entire team backing them up. They get coaching, interview practice, advisory services, opportunities to huddle up with former Y alumni - basically an entire marketing package to back them up. In contrast, at X, if you want to win a Rhodes, it's all you. You are the one that has to collect all of the requisite recommendations. You are the one to put together an essay package. You have to find help by yourself. In essence, nobody really helps you. Having seen the support system surrounding the Rhodes candidates at X and at Y, I can say that it's like night and day.</p>
<p>I know several people at X who tried to compete for the Rhodes who were highly worthy individuals. They didn't even make it past the beginning qualifying stages. I am saddened, but not surprised, because that's what happens when you don't get the proper institutional support, but your competitors are.
Substitute "elite college admission" for "Rhodes Scholarship." Students at private schools and the elite publics get coaching and the benefit of counselors who know what they're doing; they wouldn't send 30+ kids to Ivies if they didn't. Heck, one of the elite private schools in Durham has a former Duke adcom in charge of counseling. Public schools with 300+ kids per counselor might very well have students who could get into Ivies, but the lack of resources means they're on their own.</p>
<p>Ok, so there are other colleges that discriminate in favor of the wealthy along with the Ivies. So the public school grads can be discriminated against by both the Ivies and a bunch of other colleges.</p>
<p>Its actually 4%</p>
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Ok, so there are other colleges that discriminate in favor of the wealthy along with the Ivies. So the public school grads can be discriminated against by both the Ivies and a bunch of other colleges.
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<p>I think it's just the simple case that wealthy people have advantages over people who aren't wealthy. Heck, I would say that that's the reason to * become * wealthy. Why work hard to become rich if it confers no advantages for you and your family? </p>
<p>By the same token, tall people have advantages over short people. Beautiful Healthy people have advantages over people born with congenital health problems.</p>
<p>Look, what can I say? Life is not fair. At least in the case of money, you can start from nothing and still work hard and succeed and become wealthy. But if you are born short, there is basically nothing you can do about it. If you're born with diabetes, there is nothing you can do about it except undergo treatment for the rest of your life. That's life.</p>
<p>Please see my post on a related thread. In fact, Ivy student bodies are more economically diverse than at many state schools. Needs blind admissions policies and the fact that all these eight schools meet the financial needs of students from any family, stretching up to income levels over $100,000 and are totally free for many so-called middle class families, ensures this. There are many, many colleges that cater to the wealthy or which the wealthy self-select. The Ivies are not among them.</p>
<p>to the OP ... I'm not so sure about your hypothesis that the IVYies "favor" prep school kids and the kids's of the wealthy. A statement of fact would be that as percentage of the student population these kids are overrepresented compared to their representation in the general public ... that is true. However, that statement alone means little. </p>
<p>I would guess, and it is a guess, that if one took a subset of applicants with similar stat profiles (grades, class rank, test scores, etc) that if anything kid's from less privaledge backgrounds are overrepresented in each respective strata of applicants ... that the schools have higher expectations on the kids who attend top HSs (private or public) and that the admission decisions reflect this approach. If top HSs have a higher percentage of top applicants than other HSs is it really surprising they have a higher percentage of the student population?</p>
<p>(All other things being equal I would expect a top HS to have more top applicants for college if for no other reason than they can cherry pick their students ... and they pick top students. Wouldn't your argument about IVY league schools (it's not the school it's the students) also apply to top prep schools .. and wouldn't you then expect better than typical college application outcomes?)</p>
<p>3togo ... lower middle class upbringing; OK public HS grad ... IVY league grad ... how did that happen?</p>
<p>The majority of students attending Ivies and other selective, private universities come from families with incomes of $80k +.</p>
<p>And a high % of public school grads who attend such universities come from top, affluent suburban public HS - New Trier (IL), Bronxville (NY), etc.</p>
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The majority of students attending Ivies and other selective, private universities come from families with incomes of $80k +.
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<p>True enuf, but somewhat misleading unless it was a typo and you forgot the '1' as in ~180k.. Indeed, the majority of students (50+%) on Ivy campuses are full pay. Thus, family income for the majority of students is $175,000+, and many are well over $250k. Contrast that with the true middle class of ~$57k</p>
<p>sorry, red, but your conclusion is belied by the facts and by logic.</p>