<p>We are a public HS that reports class rank on transcripts. Very very few students get into HYPS. Maybe students 1-5 have a prayer, and then maybe a few slightly lower URMs or recruited athletes. There are a couple of programs at the state flagship where a student has to be in the top 2 or3% of the class for admission. The top students are within hundreths of a GPA point from each other. But 4.49-4.45 may be #1-5 and have a chance at in Ivy and the 4.40 All State orchestra student who ends up #10 doesn’t. </p>
<p>Yes, it’s ridiculous, yes most people don’t remember who their Val or Sal was, yes when they are adults HS class rank won’t matter, but it is very important for college admissions. </p>
<p>But back to the main topic. I can understand that before digital recording was so easy and common, it would have been virutally impossible to grade student performances. (I also assume that any AP class would also include conducting or composing, choreography, etc.)</p>
<p>We don’t have study hall. They can take “senior release.” It’s better for them to take no class than to have an A+ in an unweighted class. I will say that some of them go ahead and participate in orchestra and the like, just as an ungraded unofficial member.</p>
<p>@shrinkrap - LOL! No - DD13 = dear daughter class of 2013. I have DS12, DD13, and DS17. I thought that was the universal CC shorthand anyway. :)</p>
<p>A school is free to make up a course in dance or music that is as rigorous and time consuming as AP Art and weight it accordingly. </p>
<p>Our school doesn’t wait any of the other art courses, it just weights AP Art - so the art students only have a small advantage compared to the musicians or dancers - especially since our weighting scale only increases the number grade marginally (We have a 105 point scale for regular classes with a maximum of 110 for honors or AP which are both treated equally). While it was a bit of a drag that the music courses weren’t weighted, nearly every kid in the school participates in one of the arts and it’s pretty rare for one of the top ten students not to have been in either band, orchestra or chorus.</p>
<p>I expect others know more about this than I do, but I think missypie is overstating the importance of class rank to Adcoms. My kid’s friend who was admitted to Brown ED was ranked about 60th in a class of 400 (same school Emeraldkity linked to above). About 100 kids in the class came in from an accelerated program (tested in in elementary), our friend didn’t but competed with them. Got a couple of Bs, took a fairly rigorous course schedule, but not tip top. Had an important position at school and did meaningful stuff in the summer and as ECs. Just a basically smart, hardworking ambitious nice kid. Solid test scores, probably great essays. I don’t believe that making val or sal could ever be worth (in terms of college admit) giving up an art form you are passionate about.</p>
<p>I cannot comment about art specifically…but MOST schools will not allow a student to use AP Music Theory scores instead of TAKING music theory if the student is a music major. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There are a small number of states where the top 10% are guaranteed admission to their state u (Texas being the one that comes to mind most quickly…is that still the case there). BUT for college admissions at most OTHER places, the colleges actually recompute the GPA using their own formulas and the courses of their choosing. Some high schools include classes in the arts or PE in the GPA computation and some don’t. Some weigh grades and some don’t…the COLLEGES, especially the more competitive ones, take the courses THEY feel should be used and they compute the GPA for admissions purposes. The formulas high schools use to compute GPA are all over the map.</p>
<p>In addition, the high school profile is a critical piece of information used by colleges.</p>
<p>Kids should take the most challenging classes that interest them and that they are prepared for. Sometimes those are AP classes, sometimes not. If tuition cost is a problem, then the student could take running start/community college course in high school &/or AP tests and attend an instate university that will grant advanced class credit.</p>
<p>But if the student is taking AP courses simply because they have otherwise topped out of appropriate coursework in high school, then attending a school that grants a lot of credit for AP may not be in their best interest. For example, Reed college grants very limited AP credit. Most often it would be for language, but it is dependent on dept.</p>
<p>I will admit there is a disadvantge to not weighting when applying to colleges. Some scholarships asked for Gpa/rank. Oldest daughters school didnt rank or weight, so it limited the ones she applied for, although she still did win some.</p>
<p>The kid got accepted to Harvard. You have no way of knowing whether taking a study hall instead of an unweighted elective tipped his admissions. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Many (I know not ALL) of these will use the school class profile. This states the range of GPAs in the class. If your kid has the TOP GPA in the listing, it’s pretty clear where they “rank” even IF the school doesn’t rank.</p>
<p>But even if the school strips out the GPA weight, there is still the level of academic rigor. The art student would have 3 art APs to the dance student’s 0 dance APs. That could be the difference between the GC checking the “most rigorous” box or not.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, now it’s top 8%.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The students and parents have collective memories of the class ranks of which student got into which school, who was waitlisted, who was rejected. I agree that the HS profile is a critical piece of information and the admissions officers must have decided that given our profile, pretty much only the very very very top students are qualified to attend an Ivy. (I disagree, given that a half of a GPA point separates the val from the top 15% student [e.g. 4.5 vs. 4.0.])</p>
<p>Both my daughters had “lower” class ranks due to how courses were weighted. It didn’t hurt either in college admissions.</p>
<p>For ED, school did not weight any classes. By challenging herself with AP and honors classes, she was at a disadvantage compared to those students who took less rigorous paths. </p>
<p>For YD, school weighted APs and dual credit classes. She missed top spot because she wanted to continue with band and theater classes rather than take one more AP.</p>
<p>Daughters weren’t allowed to complain about class rank results (at least to me.) The mantra in our house is: Life is not fair. Deal with it and move on.</p>
<p>Missy…the reason many schools no longer report class rank is just what you stated. When the difference is .001 point between students, it really doesn’t mean much. </p>
<p>I still say, you have no way of knowing whether NOT taking an elective course tipped admissions in a students favor.</p>
<p>Art is very solo and does not require the group thing. Also, many are born with great voices or great bodies for dance. Also dancers and choir members get applause and public recognition. My daughter slaves away making a five by five footself portrait out of tiny squares of paper she painted in shades f grays whites and blacks. Only people who really see it are her prof and classmates. </p>
<p>I played flute for my high school band and took art classes. Art was by far harder. Band had the communal support, art was a solo pursuit. And what about the physical aspects of dance. Say you had a kidnin a wheel chair, how would you grade them? And some instruments are way harder than others. Do you pick and choose? Oboe was much more difficult to master than flute, and the drummers, well…</p>
<p>Much of the conversation on this thread has been on the importance of class rank and I’ve certainly contributed to it. Let’s just agree that it’s important to the students involved, whether or not it should be.</p>
<p>Whether you think rank is vitally important or totally unimportant, what about the main issue of why AP Art and not AP other performance related fine arts? At first I thought that maybe AP other fine arts would require an unreasonbly large number of graders…can the same grader grade percussion, jazz sax and classical violin? Can the same grader grade jazz dance and ballet? But then aren’t there about as many differences in Art? I assume there are at least as many styles of 3D Art as there are types of dance.</p>
<p>Maybe you should write to the college board and ask them the real reason there are not AP performance classes. They are the only people who can really answer your question.</p>
<p>But the singers and dancers recognize that many are born with artistic talent also. (How the heck did Michelangelo figure out what he could do with a block of marble?!)</p>
<p>I don’t think we can argue that there shouldn’t be AP classes in subjects in which some students are born with a natural ability because many are born with natural abilities in academic subjects. We’ve all known kids who breeze through the highest level of math that their school offers. The “natural ability” test would also prevent native speakers from taking “foreign language” AP classes and exams in their native languages.</p>
<p>My point was lost. Havng something physical like dance as an ap class would not be right. Yes there are some that are gifted in art math etc. And some born with bodies that make dancing something that comes phssically much easier. How would the graders handle someone in a wheel chair? Ap classes need to be open to those who can take them.</p>
<p>What about kids who can’t afford instruments? You would have a geared system in a school then when it comes to performing arts ap classes using instruments. Seems unfair, and I played in the high school band. </p>
<p>Ap classes should be designed where the tools used are available to all…or at least most…</p>
<p>But many students do not have the fine motor control for art and some can’t even move their arms.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That might be a valid point. But with the College Board charging what they do for the exams (and even charging $8 for a phone call to get your scores early!), the test prep industry, etc., it doesn’t seem like they are all that concerned about the students who can’t afford things.</p>
<p>Hmm…cost…Do you think an art portfolio using cheap paints/materials could earn as high of a score as one where the finest paints and materials were used? (Actual question, I don’t know the answer.) Because I can see where a student with a fine violin would sound better than a student with a cheap violin, and the student on a good, well tuned piano would sound better than the student playing the out of tune upright in the church basement. So that could be a difference. I don’t think there is a counterpart in dance, however. I doubt that cheap vs. expensive jazz shoes would affect a dancer’s grade, but then what do I know.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And when I draw a person, it looks pretty much like it did when I drew a person in 2d grade, even though I took Art I in HS. (No talent at all.)</p>
<p>A thought: All of the fine arts seem kind of out of place in the AP context. Do you think that college art departments wanted their students to have had the experience of putting together a portfolio, so they encouraged the College Board to offer the exams? And the dance and music departments knew that their potential students had much better ways of showing they were ready, so they didn’t push for AP exams in their area?</p>