Can't settle on a piano repertoire for Juilliard, NEC, & Peabody

College Majors Music Major
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<p>I am applying to Juilliard, NEC, and Peabody in the hopes that I can get accepted into their joint degree programs with schools such as Columbia, JHU, Tufts, etc. I am really struggling to decide on a repertoire. So far, I have Bach P&F in B-flat major, Beethoven Pathetique, and Ravel Gaspard de la Nuit Ondine. Since Pathetique is on the easier side, I really need to beef up my romantic selections, which are my forte. I can't decide between Chopin Ballade no. 1 and Scherzo no. 2 (I've already read both). For études, I'm considering op 10 no 1, 4, or maybe Ocean. I also need help finding a Prokofiev Etude (I was thinking op 2 no 1).</p>

<p>I can't really rely on my mom (teacher) because I don't think she's being honest in what she feels is the most substantial repertoire for me, because she wants me to focus more on grades rather than piano. What pieces do you think can best display the most technique/musical maturity?</p>

<p>Note: I have tiny hands, but I can usually find my way to work around it as long as it's reasonable. (Not sure if Chopin op 10 no 1 is "reasonable").</p>

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<p>I don’t know the piano or repertoire, but I think that though people can tell you if it is high level enough, they can’t tell you how well you are playing them. If you don’t think your mom can give you a fair assessment, if at all possible (and I realize this is difficult, because your mom might object), try to get to another teacher and pay for an assessment. All the programs you mention are top level programs, to varying degrees, and piano is one of the most competitive instruments of all, and you need to see how realistic it is that you can meet the audition requirements. </p>

<p>The other thing to keep in mind is the joint programs are all different in how they work out. The joint program between Juilliard and Columbia has different levels, there is the exchange program where students who are accepted get their undergrad degree at Columbia, and take lessons at Juilliard (they don’t do theory, orchestra and so forth, I think they may be eligible for chamber). You then can apply to the joint program, and what that means if you finish your UG at Columbia and then go right into an MM at Juilliard (in effect, you audition for grad school early)…so you get a bachelor’s from Columbia and a MM from Juilliard.</p>

<p>Others are dual degree, where you get a BM from NEC and a BA from Tufts. </p>

<p>One thing I can tell you for certain, that getting into those programs makes getting into the music school alone look easy, they take very few students for those programs, a handful at most, so it is more likely than not that you won’t get into them. If you are thinking of this as a hedge to be able to do academic work (to please mom) and get a music degree, you may want to look into doing a dual major at a music school within a university (Oberlin, Bard, Indiana), that may be more achievable versus the joint program. The other thing I have heard about the joint program, specifically the ones like NEC-Tufts, JHU-Peabody, is that they don’t make it easy, that coordinating classes between the two schools and such isn’t easy either…</p>

<p>One note, your mom could potentially be telling you the truth about your playing ability, if she is your teacher it means she probably knows what piano is like out there…but obviously, if you feel she might be doing that to get you to stay away from music as a major, then the alternative is important, to find a way to seek out a high level teacher and get an assessment from them, that won’t have that bias factor. Knowing how rough piano is, I think getting that assessment is important, because if your mom is right, then you could be in effect wasting your time preparing for auditions and applying to those kinds of programs if your playing is not up to their standards. BTW, the same audition standards apply if you are in a joint program or dual majoring or auditioning for the music school alone, you get in because your audition met their criteria, period, doesn’t matter whether you are a 4.0 with a 2400 SAT, that audition determines if you get in, and almost any program you or I mentioned is at a very high level, so knowing if you have the ability or not can save you a lot of wasted time. </p>

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<p>My mom is not deterring me from becoming a music major; she is one herself. And it’s not that she doesn’t think I am up to par, or that I don’t stand a chance, it’s just that I feel like she’s trying to get me to play “easier” pieces, or pieces I already learned, so I don’t have to practice “as much”.</p>

<p>Assuming I have the ability to play all these pieces equally competently, what combination of pieces would present the broadest range of technicality/maturity? Please bump, I really need to figure this out quick so I can commit and start practicing. </p>

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<p>If your mom is giving you easier pieces as you say, she is deterring you in a roundabout way IMO. First of all, if you apply to a BM at a conservatory, your grades won’t mean anything at all, admission is determined based on your audition (grades would count if you went to a music school in a university, though), and if she is emphasizing keeping up your grades, that is a subtle way of telling you to not major in music IMO. One thing I can tell you, however good you feel you are on your rep, whether it is the current one or a future one, the level for audition is going to be higher than you are now more than likely, because on auditions people tend to play at about 85% of their ability, due to nerves and so forth. Put it this way, I don’t know of too many people who seeing someone who wants to get into a competitive music school, would advise them to play easier pieces that take less practice, because even though it is better to play a piece at a lower level that you play well, you would need to work as hard on those ‘easy’ pieces as the hard ones, to keep them at a very high level for auditions. Even assuming right now you are ready to go for this fall for pre screens and winter for auditions, if you back off on practicing you will lose some of your ability, so whether you learn a higher level piece or play the ones you have, you will be working very, very hard if you want a chance at auditions.</p>

<p>I would talk to your mom about it, tell her you want to major in music, and that you cannot cut back on your practicing, that you are going to practice a lot no matter what, and see what she says. </p>

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<p>My mom and I have had many conversations about music and its place in my future since I was five. I know what I want, and she knows what I am capable of. She truly believes that I can have a shot at being accepted at these conservatories. The pieces I am calling “easier” are by no means easy in the piano world. None of the aforementioned pieces are considered easy by any high level musician. In fact, they are some of the most difficult piano literature. For example, my mom is recommending that I play Chopin etude op 10 no 4 instead of no 1. I am preparing myself for the toughest competition in the world, as you mentioned, by trying to put together the best repertoire I can, even if it is “better” by a tiny smidgen. That is why I am posting this thread, to compare the specific technicalities of each piece and choose the pieces that could showcase more skills in addition to those of my existing rep. </p>

<p>Now please, pianists of CC, I am really torn between the Chopin ballade 1 and scherzo 2. I need to decide soon, and I love them both equally. Any thoughts?</p>

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<p>I too love the ballade and the scherzo. I’d say go with the ballade though, just because Chopin’s scherzo no. 2 is pretty common, I’m sure many people will be auditioning with that, while ballade no. 1 isn’t performed as often as the others. I went to a piano camp and they said they like to hear audition pieces that not everyone plays. Though that might just be this college’s preference. </p>

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<p>What college was it? Wouldn’t you say that the ballade and scherzo are equally over-performed, though? I mean, they are both essentials of Chopin. </p>

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<p>@pianogeek, I’m not an expert by any means at piano, but I’ve played the 1st Ballade and the 2nd Scherzo, and found the Ballade to be more challenging both technically and musically - that would be my vote (and yes, I think pumpkinpatch35 is right in saying the scherzo no 2 is performed very often). Both are big pieces, however; I don’t think you need to base your decision on which one is “better.”
Regarding the etudes, I think you’re fine with op 10 no 4. It’s certainly challenging enough if you’re worried about playing pieces that are too easy, and probably more manageable than no 1 if you have small hands.</p>

<p>Btw, the Pathetique sonata is impressive in its own right; it’s not super difficult technically, but can be very musically rewarding (one of my favorite pieces!). I wouldn’t worry about it not being a “tough” enough selection.</p>

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<p>@clarinetkid‌ I guess you are right about Beethoven. I just hope I can play it well enough to be able to beat someone who plays, let’s say Hammerklavier. I guess your repertoire can’t be made solely of the big big pieces, right?</p>

<p>Do you think the Ballade is more technically demanding than the Scherzo? Do you think it has more to show?</p>

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<p>@pianogeek, I do think the Ballade is more technically demanding than the Scherzo, but I have relatively big hands (not the most coordinated though lol), so I’m not sure if that makes a difference. The coda of the Ballade is particularly difficult. On a musical level, I also think that the Ballade showcases more: a ballade is a story, after all, and it goes through a wide range of expressions, while the Scherzo repeats sections quite a bit. These are all personal opinions, of course.</p>

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<p>@ pianogeek it was Westminster Choir College…tiny place but great professors. </p>

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<p>@‌ pianogeek-
You used the term easier and I assumed it was relative ease. My comments on easier were in relation to where in your original post you said you thought your mom was giving you ‘easier’ pieces so you would (I would guess) not have to practice as much and keep up your grades. My point was that whether the piece is relatively easier or not, that going into audition season playing an ‘easier’ piece would not translate into less practice time and thus, being able to ‘keep up with grades’. The general rule of thumb on auditions is to play the most difficult piece that you can perform at a high level, but no matter what piece you play, it shouldn’t IMO change how much practicing you are doing…</p>

<p>In any event, I wish you luck whatever you choose to do. </p>

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<p>Thank you @musicprnt‌ ! </p>

<p>So I’ve been reading stuff online and a lot of people are saying that performing overplayed pieces are detrimental to your chances of impressing the jury. Since my whole repertoire is basically popular classical music, I’m really worried. I can’t afford to read more music…should I choose the Tempest over Pathetique? I only know the third movement of Tempest though. Pathetique I played all three in fifth grade. Then again, it’s a common audition piece. What should I do?</p>

<p>I really want to go with the ballade now, but I think both are equally trite, no? I agree that the ballade is more “showy”, which is a plus I guess.</p>

<p>Is Ondine too popular too?</p>

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<p>@pianogeek, I think you’re fine with Pathetique. Tempest isn’t really that technically difficult, so if you’re looking to impress, you’re probably better off with the Pathetique, especially since you’ve played it for so long. Just my opinion.</p>

<p>From what I know, the Ravel isn’t overplayed, but I’m not really sure. Ask your teacher, maybe?</p>

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<p>@clarinetkid‌ you sure? I’ve been doing a lot of research (mostly Piano Street) and I found a pretty reliable ranking of Beethoven sonatas from easiest to hardest. Pathetique was at 12, and Tempest 24 (out of 32). And most of the other rankings also had Pathetique many spots away from Tempest…but I don’t know. Neither are that difficult for me…but isn’t Tempest definitely less common than Pathetique?</p>

<p>I would ask my teacher, but she’s my mom and I’m tired of asking her for so many things! :P</p>

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<p>@pianogeek, I’m not completely sure, but I’ve played Tempest before and it wasn’t really that hard technically. I haven’t studied Pathetique, though, so I may be mistaken. Tempest might be a little less common the Pathetique, but I’m not sure it’s worth picking the less common piece over something you’ve played for a long time. My advice is just to play what you’re comfortable with, and play it really well!</p>

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<p>pianogeek, With your mother’s approval I would consider having supplemental lessons with another piano teacher at this time. You need so much to be able to go your private teacher for candid opinions during this time and it might be helpful to both you and your mother. We know a string player who studied with her mom all her life and went to another teacher for senior year and it worked out well for her and her mother was less stressed during audition time. Also it is not uncommon to see additional teachers when preparing for auditions as long as both teachers are on board. Good luck. </p>

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<p>If you are applying to Juilliard and its ilk for piano, then you really do need to take some lessons from at least a couple of people other than your mother. Ideally from a teacher at Juilliard or wherever else you are applying; failing that, then with someone who regularly has students accepted at places like Juilliard and Curtis. Has your mother had many students go on to study at Juilliard or NEC? If not, then find someone fast.</p>

<p>Either the Chopin Ballade or Scherzo is fine, but I have a slight preference for the Ballade for reasons others have stated above. Ondine is fine and not sickeningly common. Given your tiny hands, I would avoid the Chopin C major Etude; even if you can play it very well, your time would be better spent on something that fits your hands and does not pose as big an injury risk.</p>

<p>Four concerns: 1. You don’t mention which WTC book your Bach is from (which suggests you are not aware that there are two books which means your background in the piano lit might be lacking) and both the book I and the book II B flat majors are rather light-weight although the book II Prelude has somewhat more meat on its bones.
2. Pathetique: very commonly played. Either all or almost all of the piano rep requests that I have responded to here have involved the Pathetique. Certainly people who play the Pathetique well do get admitted to the best conservatories, but most Pathetique applicants are not good. Assuming that you are one of the good ones, then by all means do the Pathetique and do it exceptionally well, as clarinetkid advises.
3. Mom: Has she not encouraged/cajoled/forced you to take any lessons with other high level piano instructors? Both of my son’s teachers strongly encouraged him to do lessons and masterclasses with the best people around. When I taught piano, I insisted that my best students get lessons with instructors better than I prior to any major competitions or performances (and, in hindsight, realize that I should have done more of this). Have you not attended any substantial summer programs and gotten to know a teacher or two at these well enough to be able to request opinions from them? Even if mom is the best around, it would be worthwhile to drive a few hours to obtain some feedback on your repertoire (I live on the cusp of civilization many hours away from any serious culture and my son still managed to get plenty of feedback from good musicians.). There is no substitute for someone actually hearing you play (i.e. whatever advice you get hear is not nearly as valuable as what you could get at a lesson). While Peabody isn’t terribly competitive for piano, Juilliard is hugely competitive–I have been amazed at the talent that has not made it past the prescreens at Juilliard.
4. “Beat someone who plays, let’s say Hammerklavier”: I had never thought of admissions auditions as being about beating others on instruments like piano and violin at places like Juilliard. You do need to beat a standard of playing; at schools like these, if you don’t meet the standard, then you are not admitted regardless of how your playing compares with other auditioners. [The situation is quite different with instruments like trumpet or bassoon for which there are a very limited number of spots in one or two studios and in the orchestras.] While I’m certain that you used the term “beat” in a metaphorical sense, our metaphors do tend to betray our mindset. Focusing on the music you make is much healthier than focusing on the other auditioners and what rep they play or how well they play it. Although I am an unhealthily competitive person, I try to avoid the language of competition when speaking with students and their parents and try to play up language which emphasizes creating moving and beautiful musical experiences. How we speak affects how we think which affects how meaningful our music will be for ourselves and others.</p>

<p>Best of luck! (I hope I don’t get in trouble with mom! or get you in trouble with her!)</p>

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<p>Great post, violindad!</p>