career advice from practicing attorneys

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>I was reading a thread on the law school forum and an existing attorney answered the poster's question and added " I still wonder why anyone would WANT to be a lawyer anymore..."</p>

<p>As a dentist, I would love my daughters to enter my profession, but neither one feels so inclined. My wife is a corporate middle manager type and she would definitely guide them away from that. I also know many physicians who have advised their children not to become MDs because of the current malpractice/health insurance problems. </p>

<p>My older D is basically undecided, but considering pre-law in college. She is extremely bright, well spoken and has stats competitive for any school in the country (a BWRK in CC vernacular). Would the practicing attorneys advise their own children to pursue the law? Why or why not? Which subspecialties provide the best combination of income & job satisfaction?</p>

<p>Thanks for any and all advice!</p>

2

<p>as a former lawyer, i have been very happy that neither child has ever expressed an interest in the law. and i do think many people going into law school have no idea what it really means to be a lawyer. and what it means to be a lawyer can mean a thousand different things depending upon what type of practice you have (type of law, size of firm, etc.)
why didn't i like it? hours stunk - the deadlines are real - the work needs to get done when the court or client says it needs to get done. lawyers for the most part are a pretty aggressive, argumentative group of people - makes for interesting classroom debates - makes for miserable work environment (and i'm not even just talking about the opposing lawyers, but the ones you work with!)
the happiest lawyers i know are the ones who have their own practice or are part of a small practice and do basic every day type of law that regular people need - and this was the type of legal practice most "looked down on" in terms of what a prestigious law school will try to be preparing you for - and probably also the hardest to earn a great living.</p>

3

<p>I am almost reluctant to weigh in here as another lawyer disappointed in the state of the profession and the opportunities. I chose to spend my career in-house, working in the legal departments of corporations. Most recently, I have been General Counsel of two dysfunctional corporations. Right now I am going in a new direction- I am totally burned out on corporate America.
I am not discouraging S from considering law, but I want him to go into it with eyes wide open, and not feel obliged to do the big firm track. I think law school provides an excellent education and teaches some crucial critical thinking skills. However, I am just not sure the normal career tracks are healthy for anyone. I agree that a small practice representing the community "folk" may be the most rewarding in the long run. I would also take a look at a government track. At my age I am thinking "job security" and "benefits", which is NOT what concerned me at 24!</p>

4

<p>Another non-practicing lawyer here. Went to a prestigious law school, worked for a prestigious law firm on the West Coast--I agree with unbelievablm that the hours were terrible (the firm really was the #1 priority in my life while I worked there--became a real issue after I had a family); the litigation side of law was often tedious (paperwork!!!!) and very scorched-earth nasty. Quit when my oldest was almost 3 with the idea that if we needed the money, I would go back to work. Thankfully, never ran out of money and that was 15 years ago! (THANK YOU, H!!)</p>

<p>Some of my female lawyer friends are still in the field. Most started out at high-powered firms, got good experience for 3-7 years and then either moved in-house or moved to smaller firms. Many are in tax-related fields (employee benefits, estate planning, general business tax) or are specialists writing appeal briefs. These areas seem to be less filled with the pressures of a corporate or litigation practice. But it is also not on the fast track at any law firm.</p>

<p>The practice of law--the advice I would give any kid going into it is that they better LOVE the law--don't go into it because it pays a lot of money and you just don't know what you want to do with your English degree.</p>

5

<p>I am a practicing lawyer who loves my (nontraditional) practice...certainly, there are times, clients and issues that cause me stress -- but I believe there are times, projects and people in any profession/job that cause stress...that's not unique to law.</p>

<p>My son has talked about law school in an undecided "ruminating" sort of way...I'd support him 100% (and if I can I'll even pay for his law school)...the law has been good to me (and I believe I've been good to it)...plus, there are so many different ways to practice law, or use a law degree...the choices are really limitless...</p>

<p>To me, it comes down to your choice of law work...certainly there are cutthroat environments and brutal work hours--and that's where the huge bucks are, at least starting out. But there are also firms, law departments in companies and trade associations, and private practice choices that pay the bills (comfortably!) and provide an awful lot of "pyschic satisfaction" along the way.</p>

<p>There's really no professional feeling (that I've found) that quite matches knowing you've helped someone who really deserves the help by bringing your skill and knowledge to the task. I am fortunate--I have several "war stories" in my career where I can really see my "fingerprints" on the outcome, on issues in which I believe deeply, for people about whom I grew to care quite a lot.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I certainly know those who've burnt out (and I won't guarantee I won't burn out, either); I know those whose work lives are "brutal"...it all comes down to the lawyer's choices of work, work environment, and client (and that includes balancing the income potential)--</p>

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<p>oh and another thing i thought regarding the realities of practice --
in law school school you get to engage in a lot of theoretical discussions and debates - there isn't always a clear right or wrong answer.
in the practice of law - your clients want an answer - yes or no - no long theoretical discussion - just can we do this or not - and if the answer is "not," they aren't always real happy about it. there can be a lot of pressure from the client and your law firm superiors to come up with the answer the client wants. you have to have an enormous amount of self confidence and fortitude to withstand that if you are not going to let that influence your advice. i was lucky in that i worked at firms where although the partners might push really hard, if you held your ground and could support it, they ended up backing you up with the client.
people attracted to the law are often attracted to the challenge of coming up with answers to "legal puzzles" - sometimes that challenge takes on a life of its own and you can forget the bigger picture.</p>

7

<p>Another non-practicing lawyer here. I had the neighborhood law practice, and heard all the sob stories, and loved helping. Very difficult to make a decent living. They want your help, but don't want to pay for all the time it takes to do a really good job. Friends of mine started in a (in the news all the time) top firm, and quit because of the pressure to bill, and the ways that were used to generate billable hours - (minimum 60 hours per week required of each attorney). Have spoken to D and she will never go into law. I had to deal with the politics - the client crying on the stand because the opposing atty wanted to know her address and which flight she was taking at what time, etc.,(hiding from abusive H) and judge telling her she had to tell, because the other atty donated to his election campaign. Stomach turned many times. If child is an idealist - the law isn't the place to be. Loved being able to help, hated the disillusionment. Yet, I won many, many more than I ever lost. And it can be boring - tedious - drafting the same document over and over. And there was the case where I took on the builder in our subdivision, and had to hire my own atty - they spent a lot of money avoiding the issues, and attacking me instead of just settling. It would haqve cost them less. The judge threw it out, but not until I spent a lot of $. This happens when you take on the tough cases. And I can't remember how many times the other side simply poured a whole lot more $ than my clients had, and we were forced to settle because the client couldn't afford to continue, or I continued, and never was paid. The lawyer that I worked for while in law school is now a teacher, and lead his inner city school debate team to state - they never even had a team before! He did neighborhood and real estate law. He said he was finally fulfilled. Law is not what it was cracked up to be.</p>

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<p>Another less than happy lawyer here. I think my decision to go to law school was a very ill informed choice. I did well on the LSAT and somehow thought that might be a sign I should go to law school. How I wish I had read a thread like this 25 years ago! </p>

<p>There are some things I do like about being a lawyer, but if I had to do it all over again, I would not go to law school (Actually, I liked law school just fine. It's being a lawyer I don't much care for.) I was one of those kids who was told repeatedly, "You love to argue so much, you should be a lawyer!" It wasn't until much later that I realized that I didn't so much love to argue as that I loved being right (and winning, of course). I really dislike confrontation, and that is probably the most unpleasant aspect of my job. Well, that and the tedium, but I've opted for a somewhat tedious type of practice rather than a more exciting, more stressful practice to keep my sanity and my blood pressure in check.</p>

<p>I agree to some extent with those who've touted the small town/small firm practice as being more tolerable. I work part-time doing appellate briefs for a friend who is a solo practitioner, and I definitely have a family-friendly schedule. But there are some aspects of the small firm practice that I think don't occur to lots of law students or young lawyers when they decide to go that route. The main surprise to a lot of them is that they are not just lawyers but are business men and women as well. Running a small business is not something that was taught at my law school, and it is something that I have never had an interest in doing. That's why I'm the part-time employee and my friend is the business owner. </p>

<p>My kids have mentioned possibly going to law school, but they're young enough that I think I'll have time to talk them out of it or at least to make sure they know what they're getting into.</p>

9

<p>Responding to unbelievablem's post:</p>

<p>Today lawyers, like most other people, are expected to be problem solvers, not just givers of advice. That can make life more interesting, if you like the problems. There are, unfortunately, some people whose philisophy consists strictly of (or who like to behave as if their philosophy consists strictly of) "I didn't hire you to tell me what I can't do - I hired you to tell me how to do what I want to do." In some, maybe many, cases, a way can be found to do what, or most of what, the client wants to do (sometimes even without a huge expenditure; other times there will be a sizable expenditure), but sometimes there just isn't a way. That's when things get difficult, including trying to practice law in a sensible way. </p>

<p>I also have been fortunate most of the time to have the necessary backing when I have had to take a firm stance - but only most of the time.</p>

10

<p>perhaps the key to happiness as a lawyer is whether you like your clients and feel comfortable letting their goals dictate your professional life? (and i dont' mean dictate in a bad way - just by definition, i think one's clients exercise enormous control/influence over what that lawyer's professional life will be like - yes the lawyer has the ability to determine how to respond, but if you aren't in sync with the clients, i think you are more likely to be unhappy)</p>

<p>by the way, i notice the thread has been largely dominated by those of us who have been less than happy as lawyers - do we outnumber, or are we just the ones with time to post here? :)</p>

11

<p>As the resident law student, I'll chime in:</p>

<p>A lot of satisfaction relates directly to whether or not you have student loans to pay off. Lack of loans (or the extraordinarily generous loan forgivement programmes) gives a newly minted lawyer the freedom to practice where he chooses, at firms he likes, and at more reasonable hours - no need to chase the money to pay student loans.</p>

<p>The advice I give everyone is that, before going to law school, to calculate a 10-year repayment schedule on student loans. Then, calculate how much you need to make to comfortably afford to repay those loans. Check the median private sector salaries at the school, and check the percentage who clerk and go into private practice (generally, clerks are talented students who, after their clerkship, command high salaries). Can you, at the school, even make enough money to pay off those loans?</p>

12

<p>You can figure out repayment through a somewhat complicated formula (which I don't have at the moment), or, you can estimate through tables which will tell you how much it costs per month to repay a certain amount of loans over 10 years at a given interest rate. Very useful.</p>

13

<p>I didn't particularly like law school, but really enjoy practicing law.</p>

<p>I had not gone deeply into debt to pay for law school, and knew I wouldn't be happy at a big firm. I went to work for a small firm, and left after two years to open a law office with a friend. </p>

<p>A little over five years later, I sold the practice to my partner, and divided my time over the next few years between playing music, and running a solo practice. After six years of that, I went in-house. (I will caution anyone reading this that it's extremely difficult to go in-house after the sort of practice I had; if it hadn't been for the white-hot job market in Silicon Valley a few years back, I would probably still be a sole practitioner.)</p>

<p>Litigation can be fun; it would probably be more precise to say winning at litigation is fun. You do run into a lot of confrontational, unpleasant people in that field, however.</p>

<p>Here's a war story that illustrates what sole practice can be like: I was representing a single mother (who ran a day-care center from her home) in a dispute with her landlord. She was behind on her rent, but the housing was really substandard. The roof was leaking badly, and the ceilings had collapsed in two rooms.</p>

<p>We worked out a settlement that required her to pay a portion of the back-rent by 6:00 p.m. on a aspeific day, and to move out by on a few weeks later. Her co-worker had called in sick that day, and one of the parents was late to pick up her child. By the time my client arrived at opposing counsel's office with the check, he had closed for the day. She slipped the check under his door. He returned it uncashed.</p>

<p>I had to go back to court to argue that under the circumstances, my client could not abandon the child, and that her slightly late tender of the check was excused by the doctrine of necessity. My client started crying in the courtroom, and the judge reprimanded her for doing so, but she granted the motion.</p>

<p>I reminded my client that she had to be out of the place by an agree-upon date, or a judgment would be entered against her for the back-rent. She assured me she would be out. I stopped by at noon on the relevant day, and was astounded by how much she still had to move. I spent the rest of the day helping her move. She was out with minutes to spare.</p>

<p>Like I say, it's fun to win.</p>

<p>My co-workers are bright, interesting people. It's a pleasure to work with them. Since I started doing transactional work, I have generally enjoyed very collegial relations with them.</p>

<p>My wife is a lawyer as well; she put her practice on hold a few years ago, but plans to resume it at least part-time when our youngest is in the first grade</p>

<p>I will neither encourage my sons to attend law school, nor discourage them from doing so, if they show an inclination for that sort of thing. It was the right path for me, and the right path for my wife; nobody pressured either of us to become lawyers, and it wouldn't occur to me to pressure either of my boys to make such a choice.</p>

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<p>what if one doesn't want to go into litigation? is life as a lawyer different? what other options of law specializations are there? or are the lawyers working in big law firms expected to litigate?</p>

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<p>Big firms are usually divided into litigation, and transactions. Tranactional attorneys draft contracts, help with corporate filings, structure deals for optimal tax treatment, and do myriads of other things.</p>

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<p>However, it doesn't seem to me, based on personal experience, that one can generalize in terms of the personalities involved in litigation or transactions. I know quite a few lawyers in white-shoe firms. The litigators are some of the loveliest people I know. The ones who do contracts are ahem spherical toy busters I can hardly stand to be around. </p>

<p>And for some reason, all lawyers tell me all the other lawyers they know are horrible people!</p>

17

<p>Aparent,</p>

<p>Do these litigators who are "some of the loveliest people [you] know" really tell you that all the other lawyers they know are horrible people?</p>

<p>You should introduce some of these exceptionally lovely people to each other. I'm sure it would please them to finally meet a few lawyers who are not horrible people.</p>

18

<p>By the way, when I typed "My co-workers are bright, interesting people. It's a pleasure to work with them. Since I started doing transactional work, I have generally enjoyed very collegial relations with them," I meant to say "Since I started doing transactional work, I have generally enjoyed very collegial relations with opposing counsel."</p>

<p>When I was litigating, I often enjoyed collegial relations with opposing counsel, but that was not always the case. (I'm not implying that this has anything to do with the personalities of the litigators; it has more to do with the nature of litigation itself.)</p>

19

<p>Graybeard, I don't make up this stuff! I wasn't meaning to discredit your comments. Just wanted to point out that my own personal experience is counterintuitive. </p>

<p>Why do both the lovely people -- and the others -- all tell me other lawyers are horrible? I have no idea. I assume that it has something to do with the fact that the profession is by nature adversarial. And so many of them seem to work too hard.</p>

20

<p>Fair enough, aparent5. All the lawyers I know complain about some lawyers. But I've never heard one say that "all the other lawyers they know are horrible people." </p>

<p>Of course, by implication they would be saying that my wife is a horrible person, and that I am as well. Those who hold such opinions are more likely to express them to you than to me.</p>

<p>In any event, to the extent you can say you know me through this board, you now know one lawyer who doesn't think all lawyers are horrible people.</p>

<p>It's true that the adversarial nature of the practice of law makes for a larger number of unpleasant exchanges than you'll find in most professions. I've found that to be more true in a litigation context than a transactional one; litigation is a zero sum game; business transactions are not.</p>

<p>The practice of law is probably a poor career choice for people who are particularly confrontation-averse. (That doesn't mean that it's only for people who are particularly confrontational in nature, though.)</p>

<p>And I certainly agree that many lawyers work too hard. I remember asking one of my law professors why he thought that was the case. His response: "There's a feeling somehow that this is all going to go away someday." My view is that, yes, it will all go away some day, so don't spend all of your waking hours working before it does.</p>