Carleton vs. Chicago vs. Swat

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Sorry if these questions have already been answered and/or beaten to death. The search option is not working for me at the moment.</p>

<p>I've come to the conclusion that Carleton, U Chicago, and Swarthmore are all the best fits. However, I probably missed some things and have been left wondering. So, here are a few slightly specific questions:
- Which school would be most generous with FA? I remember hearing something about Swat being named #1 for FA by the Princeton Review, so I suppose this is more geared toward Carleton and Chicago.
- Which has the strongest classics, political science, and linguistics programs? I've been toying with the idea of law school, if that matters.
- Which offers the "best" (for lack of a better word) study abroad program? By best, I mean cheapest, most accessible, etc.
- Are these schools flooded with hipsters and people obsessed with the hipster culture? I've gotten mixed reviews with that for all three colleges. It doesn't particularly matter; it's more of an idle curiosity thing.</p>

<p>That's all I can think of at the moment. I realize it's not time to make a concrete decision or anything along those lines yet, but I figured it would be smart to get an even better idea of my top three choices.</p>

<p>At the same time, does anyone have any other suggestions? To be brief about the criteria for my choices, I'm completely flexible with location, I will be needing FA (<$40,000 income, hopefully loan-free), and to be completely blunt, I love nerds and the people who would be considered weird or freakishly smart in high school. Not much for parties, enjoy debate and quirkiness, etc.</p>

<p>Quick stats:
3.94 UW
2310 SAT
34 ACT
800 German w/ Listening, 780 Literature, 750 US History
White NC female -- 1/8 Native American, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter at all? (lol)
Unique (?) ECs that may set me apart; I've worked 50ish (meaning I usually work in the 50 hr vicinity but may sometimes only work 40, 35, etc) for two years to help support my family while being editor-in-chief of school newspaper and co-teaching a remedial writing class.
Unsure of class rank</p>

<p>Current school list: Carleton, Chicago, Swat, Yale, Amherst, Brown, Tufts, Grinnell, Beloit, and Smith.</p>

<p>One last quick question: would it be unwise to do an essay on how a school will provide the specific resources and opportunities I need to expand and deepen my interests after spending most of my high school career with the majority of my time spent working? I was going to incorporate personal experience and tie it together with my love of learning. I've been told, however, this topic would most likely sound whiny/indecisive/"I don't know what I'm doing" and I shouldn't do it. Thoughts?</p>

2

<p>In my experience, UChicago’s FA is not anything to get excited for. It works for some people, it doesn’t for others. I wouldn’t hinge any bets on it. It gave my family just enough money so that I could attend (and, really, gave us way less than the FA calculator says we should’ve received). Also, I’ll go ahead and note that calling the Chicago FA office to try to wheedle more money out of them will in all likelihood be unsuccessful. They are very stubborn when it comes to this money business.</p>

<p>From what I understand, Chicago’s classics department is stellar. I unfortunately don’t know too much about the linguistics or political science sides of the deal, but UChicago is decently strong in those areas as well. I also can’t speak for the study abroad program as of now, but it certainly seems decently accessible.</p>

<p>Hipsters . . . there is certainly a healthy hipster presence, but I wouldn’t call it horribly prevalent on campus? I mean, it’s kind of just there. (Sorry, that was probably very unhelpful.)</p>

<p>As for the essay, write what you want to write, what you think will portray you best. There’s no right or wrong answer there. Good luck. :)</p>

<p>EDIT: Have you looked at Reed by any chance? It’s very similar to UChicago, I think, in terms of general student atmosphere and vibe. It is also remarkably hipster, from what I hear.</p>

3

<p>Sorry to be so blunt, but you need to play the FA game and then (FA being alike) then decide between schools. </p>

<p>Falling in love with a school, only to be denied because they want another FA candidate better or falling in love with a school only to find out that their package this year is not adequate for your needs due to their own financial situation … leads to heartbreak. That said, many elite schools have generous financial aid for needy candidates. I doubt too many would argue with the student body of those three schools described as 'having a significant number of nerdy and/or quirky students. And all willl handle the classics quite well and all will have fine study abroad programs. </p>

<p>FORGET about that ‘I’ve worked so hard’ essay. There are other ways to get it across than that - but in essay form it will come across as ‘I’m great and I’ve had to work so hard outside of school wrapped into a school like ‘X’ can free me from that’ is a dud. As part of your FA package you WILL be doing work-study (at the least) so that won’t come off like you think it will. </p>

<p>Also, Law School is about a great G.P.A. AND LSAT score. Where you went to school is a tie-breaker, at best, so choose the school you want to go to. That said, Brown being pass/fail before switching to grades gives a kid a chance to adjust to college studies before having to sweat grades.</p>

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<p>True, but law schools know which schools have grade inflation or deflation. In fact, they have an index which adjusts the GPAs of different schools accordingly. Swarthmore is notorious for grade deflation, which is a great advantage to its students who can maintain a decent GPA. Thus, Swarthmore has very strong law placement for those who can survive (or thrive) there.</p>

<p>Unlike some other top ten (research) universities, Chicago has not succumbed to grade inflation as much, so a good GPA from Chicago is very well-regarded too by law schools.</p>

5

<p>I agree that your top 3 choices are very similar. I haven’t visited Swarthmore but I’ve visited the other two and students looked, acted, etc very similarly, so I think you’re on the right track.</p>

<p>I agree with others that since FA is so important to you it’s not essential that you pick one top choice now. Apply to all the schools you love (and it looks like your list is pretty solid with reaches/matches/safeties), then compare FA and see which ones are most reasonable.</p>

<p>That being said, Amherst sticks out to me of your list. Almost all the others schools have a very nerdy (in a good way) student body, and while I’m not saying that Amherst students are any less intelligent than at peer schools Amherst is known for a much more “traditional” college experience, with a lot more drinking and partying than many other schools. Yes, I know that Amherst has the sort of people you want, but I’m just saying that unlike the other schools on your list Amherst’s typical student doesn’t match your descriptions.</p>

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<p>Well, if you have data to prove that point, please bring it forward. Meanwhile, take a look at Law School rankings and their 25 - 75 percent range G.P.A. and LSATs. Clearly there is a strong correlation between these two stats and their all-so-precious final rankings. Grad deflation/inflation is said to be more of a factor at other graduate school pursuits, but I don’t know that for a fact.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html[/url]”>Law School Rankings;

<p>It’s a numbers game at Law Schools and law schools are playing that game. For example, Georgetown will only allow their undergrad students with a great G.P.A. to get accepted into their law program (prior to graduation and without taking the LSATs). What happened to a more holistic approach? Why exclude lower G.P.A. candidates? Why not understand that a Georgetown student with a double-major in Arabic and Physics may have to work harder to get a 3.7 than a comparative literature major with a 3.8? Because they don’t care. They want to accept students that bring a great G.P.A. to their numbers WITHOUT hurting their LSAT number. They’re playing the law school mambo to scratch above some other law school or stay above another. This isn’t to pick on Georgetown, it’s the reality that kids interested in law school need to know.</p>

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<p>I don’t have any hard data. But a former law school admissions officer (who is now an admissions consultant) told me this personally. She worked for a “top 14” national law school. This has been confirmed to me by a law school advisor.</p>

<p>The general consensus is that the lower a school is ranked, the more likely it will be a “numbers whore.” And usually if a law school is numbers-oriented, it cares a lot more about the LSAT instead of GPA. Some schools base scholarships solely on LSAT scores.</p>

<p>For example, if you go outside the top six (HYSCCN) law schools, you’ll find many kids with sub-3.5 GPAs, but 170+ LSATs. Regional law schools (outside the top 14) will often take kids with sub-3.0 GPAs if they score 170 or above on their LSATs.</p>

<p>Ironically, HYS are more likely to take a chance on someone who doesn’t have all the numbers because they can afford to do this. Of course, such an applicant would have a lot of other things going for him or her.</p>

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<p>For years, Chicago has been very strong in linguistics. Of the 3 schools you mention, I’d expect that field to be pretty much no contest in Chicago’s favor. Swarthmore is one of the only LACs that has a full Linguistics department at all; it probably is quite good. Chicago, however, has one of the country’s leading graduate programs to back it up, not to mention instruction in some 49 languages. It is the oldest department of linguistics in the USA. The Chicago Linguistic Society, too, is the oldest student association of its kind in the country. I would think it is a tremendous asset to students in this field.</p>

<p>Scholarship at Chicago has always had a very interdisciplinary orientation. Political Science is a good example of a field where you’re likely to find lots of collaboration with related programs, including the famous econ department. In fact, technically, there are no “departments” at all in the College. So a professor might have an appointment in the Department of Political Science (grad school) and to “The College”. </p>

<p>As for “nerds and the people who would be considered weird or freakishly smart in high school”, this is an old Chicago forte (probably since long before people began using the word “nerd” as a facetious term of endearment.) I do hope that aspect of the place hasn’t changed. Be sure to check out Chicago’s annual “Scav Hunt” ([University</a> of Chicago Scavenger Hunt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago_Scavenger_Hunt]University”>University of Chicago Scavenger Hunt - Wikipedia))</p>

9

<p>canary: </p>

<p>Kudos for figuring out what you want in a college. Your top three choices have an enormous amount in common and tend to draw a similar group of applicants. Regarding each specific question:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>FA: Swat and Carleton will generally offer very generous packages. Discontentment with FA is rare. Chicago will be more hit or miss. You may do just as well there, but there have been more individual complaints with offerings.</p></li>
<li><p>Political science will be very strong at each school. For linguistics and classics, mostly by virtue of these department’s much smaller, more niche draw, Chicago will have more depth. </p></li>
<li><p>Study abroad offerings will be strong at all three but statistically Carleton is much more likely to see participation (at around 70% of the student body). Chicago’s numbers have typically been much lower, at around 35%, possibly related to significant core requirements (though some study abroad programs fulfill part of the core). Swarthmore’s has also been much lower, possibly due to requirements tied to Honor’s participation.
[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/most-study-abroad]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/most-study-abroad)</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Costs involved with going abroad at Carleton and Chicago have been very reasonable. FA transfers well. Main out of pocket costs are flights and upcharges for room and board (especially in Europe given the weak dollar). </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Hipsters, yeah, in small numbers at all three. None are schools that draw this crowd in large numbers.</p></li>
<li><p>Law schools will look upon all three very well. All are similarly academically challenging. It will come down to your LSATs in the end. Don’t think this should be a factor in making a decision.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>So I’ll add a final point. The three schools have much in common but there are clear differences. My take at the risk of over-generalizing:</p>

<p>Carleton: Small town buccolic location 45 minutes from Minneapolis. Rigorous curriculum and significant intellectualism but kids very happy, lots of offbeat/quirky fun, with serious studies not translating to taking other things in their lives too seriously.</p>

<p>Chicago: Deeply urban, large city, Hyde Park/Chicago. Greater resources of a university while sharing prof’s attention with grad students. Kids take themselves and their studies/intellectualism generally very seriously. More darkly edgy, having fun while taking sarcastic pride in “the place where fun comes to die” (and doesn’t). </p>

<p>Swat: An in-between suburban location on a pretty campus with easy access to Philly. Students take their studies most seriously of the three but intellectualism a little less so than Chicago. </p>

<p>Again, lots of overlap in student body with some measurable variations in tenor of experience after four years. Location differences are the most glaring. These are three great schools.</p>

10

<p>Here are a few more things to think about. (Chicago undergrad who knows a handful of Swatties and Carls doing grad at Chicago.)</p>

<p>Agreed that the schools are remarkably similar in the dimensions you’re looking for (intellectual, somewhat offbeat, a lot of overlap.) However, what makes Chicago very different is a) student body size, b) environment, and c) overall function/University mission.</p>

<p>A few notes on each–</p>

<p>Student body size: There are about 5,000 undergrads at Chicago and while I meet new people all the time, I still feel that there’s a sense that everybody knows everybody and that some people are known by their first name. (Like, for example, there’s only one “Suzie” or “Suzie the AOII sister” or whatever). So I think the student body size is about the smallest I could sanely handle. I would go NUTS at a smaller school, particularly after the grad students are taken out.</p>

<p>Environment: As mentioned before, Chicago is in a city, Swat and Carleton are near cities. I can’t speak for other students, but being in the city of Chicago has definitely been a benefit to the way I conduct my daily life and the opportunities I have. Having spent a few summers on college campuses that, like Swat and Carleton, were somewhat removed and insular, I realized I needed a campus that was more open to the real world, where I could just as easily find non-university people as university people. And for many of my peers, that ability to wander from campus has translated into internships at the Chicago History Museum, work for politicians, etc. So another question is how much you would enjoy the “bubble.”</p>

<p>Overall function: Because the U of C has so many arms of students doing all sorts of different things, the College at the University of Chicago is just one component. In my mind, I get the best of both worlds-- tiny classes with professors like an LAC, opportunities to tag along with the law, business, med school, and hospitals, which are all alongside the main campus.</p>

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<p>Chicago’s Classics department has been in decline in recent years (as has Harvard’s), and it has never been a particularly well-rounded department. Admittedly it would offer more than Swarthmore or Carleton in terms of the number of courses available.</p>

<p>If one factors in the consortium schools (Bryn Mawr, Penn), however, the balance shifts very quickly in Swat’s favor.</p>

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<p>Swat has a no loan policy for financial aid. Aid is all grants and work study. I don’t beleive that is true of either of the other 2. All of the schools on your list are great schools. Your best bet is to visit as many of the schools as you can to get a better idea of which will be the best fit for you.</p>

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<p>Unalove brings up school size - an important factor I should have added. </p>

<p>Chicago undergrad sits at about 5,000 with another 10,000 grad students, Carleton has about 2,000 undergrads, Swat about 1,500. Most kids at LACs, despite their smaller sizes, will tell you they still never come close to getting to know more than a minority of even those in their own graduating class. With 500 new arrivals and 500 departures yearly at Carleton, for example, there are new faces seen every day. </p>

<p>I agree with Unalove that smaller schools do present smaller stages, but for those who choose LACs that stage is plenty large. Activities tend to be more campus centric and student involvement in on-campus activities tends to be stronger. </p>

<p>Stats also really do support the idea that intimacy bred over four years on a smaller campus translates to a greater sense of connection four years or forty years after graduation. Differences in giving rates can be glaring with LACs as a group reporting much higher giving rates than universities. Carleton has had the highest rate in the nation for several years. Alumni donations reported in 2009:</p>

<p>63% Carleton
48% Swarthmore
33% Chicago</p>

14

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<p>Has any formerly strong Classics department NOT been in decline in recent years? Berkeley’s?</p>

<p>How robust and well-rounded can a department remain when it attracts, say, 1% of all majors? That’s a guess, because the Common Data Sets don’t even break out Classics majors. There’s a category for “Foreign Languages and Literature”, which might attract 3% or 5% of majors at selective schools.</p>

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There is a difference between a gradual decline and a notable faculty exodus. Chicago and Harvard suffer from the former and latter, respectively, but neither department is what it was.</p>

<p>To answer your question, Berkeley would not be a good example; its department has stayed fairly stable. UT Austin, NYU, UNC Chapel Hill, Brown, and UCLA would be better examples, as they’ve expanded.</p>