<p>Yes Kriegz I have suspected you were conservative. </p>
<p>kcirsch- I was referring to college admission, but you bring up a very good point that I cannot answer now. Its easier, yes, to use AA on race than AA on econmic status for companies. I think it would benefit even more to the workforce (maybe less CEOs being caught doing illegel shi!t?). idk</p>
<p>i support economic and racial AA, because i think you need to account for disadvantages they have endured. but schools like Harvard who say that they dont discriminate on the basis of race, colour etc should stop saying that because obviously choosing a black kid over a better-qualified white kid is discrimination. I dont know if i should put my race on the common application, since im not a URM, but the supplement section asks your country of birth anyway.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think that colleges, for the most part, should try to have their percentage of minorities match more closely the actual percentage of minorities in the US. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't want to go to college with just a bunch of upper class white people who bought their way into admission.
[/quote]
I would like to be with the best of the best, no matter what their skin color or social/economic status. Think about what you're saying. Would it be okay to say, "John Doe's a pretty nice guy, I just don't like to hang out with him because he's poor." Is it okay to say the reverse? </p>
<p>Also, you seem to imply that all white people are rich and buy their way into college.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I want a diverse mix of races and economic backgrounds, even if it means that these people aren't as academically inclined, and AA is the only feasible way to do this.
[/quote]
"A diverse mix of races." That wouldn't hurt. However, what is that worth? Who is to say that a Caucasian or Asian can't provide the same thing as a URM? What is the actual value of having a racially diverse campus? Remember, racial diversity does not equate cultural or economic diversity.</p>
<p>
[quote]
"And don't pull the race card on me. You're pulling it yourselves by stereotyping URMs - just in a positive way. You are essentially being racist against caucasians."</p>
<p>I dont think that I am stereotyping, simply citing the fact that A. Certain minorites are underrepresented in universities across the US and B. Certain races are, statistically, more economically disadvantaged as a whole than caucasians
[/quote]
A is true, as is B. However, I don't understand how that has any application to the admissions process. We are talking about individual cases, afterall its the individual that gets admitted, not the entire race. </p>
<p>By the way, I wouldn't call that stereotyping them in a positive way.</p>
<p>To the people who oppose racial AA: Merely being a member of certain races exposes you to prejudice, regardless of your economic status.</p>
<pre><code> When Thurgood Marshall was a Supreme Court justice and rode the elevator to work every morning, white tourists would ask him to "push two, please," thinking that he was the elevator boy. He was very well-educated, throughly gentrified and among the greatest jurists of his era but still faced pervasive discrimination. The whites ordering him around didn't think of themselves as racist, but they still had strong unconsious impulses towards unfairness.
</code></pre>
<p>Malcolm Gladwell's new book "Blink" provides another example. Most people, including the half-black author, take less time in a psychological test to associate whiteness with positive concepts and blackness with negative concepts than if asked to do the reverse. This is simply a reflection of the culture of America today. We will hopefully do away with this prejudice once and for all one day, but until then it is worthy to recognize the largely unconsious bigotry minority groups face. That is why race-based affirmative action is still necessary today.</p>
<p>I disagree when people say that a URM who is "underqualified" gets in because of AA and someone else who is "qualified" doesn't. The way I look at it is college admissions is trying to measure actual intelligence as opposed to standardized tests or the like. If actual intelligence could be measured--let's say that two people of equal intelligence are born into different circumstances: one is born into a wealthy family and goes to academically superior schools, while the other is born into a struggling family and is forced to go to inferior schools. By the time the two reach the SAT's, the one who went to the better school is going to be better prepared because he/she will have been better educated for over a decade. Even though the two started at the same point by being equally intelligent, one had more advantages and therefore has higher test scores, better EC's, etc. I think AA, economically at least, is a way of looking at a student and taking into account his or her advantages or disadvantages. After comparing the two, it may appear that the disadvantages student, while his/her scores were not as good, has done more, worked harder (although both have worked hard). Even though they are both equally smart, one had more help along the way.</p>
<p>As a conservative URM I oppose racial AA (and no I didn't play the race card when I applied to school I checked the "I'm not disclosing" box). period. It's just not right to give people an advantage because of the color of their skin even if they have been historically discriminated against. I hate racial AA mainly though because it diminishes my achievements. I worked extremely hard throughout my life and It is hurtful when people say that I got into a great school only because I'm a URM (although I don't appear to be a URM I'm Mexican - grew up there most of my life moved to the US when I was in h.s. - and Swiss.). Secondly, statistics have proven (I'll try to find the article - I did a paper on AA jr year of h.s. which had a bunch of really good stats) that AA actually hurts minorities because many times they are admitted to school where they are not intellectually qualified to be at thus they end up dropping out. </p>
<p>However with regards to economic AA I have no problem. You are not giving someone (rich or poor) a leg up because of their skin color but rather you are helping many intelligent and qualified students who otherwise might never be able to take advantage of a great education. Bing described it pretty well, 2 people might be the same intellectually but they might have had very different upbringings which might make one seem more intelligent. If the poorer student is given an opportunity he or she will appreciate it and work extremely hard...</p>
<p>I was born into a very wealthy family, I was lucky enough to have many opportunities to challenge myself and I was able to work hard and get accepted to a great school. However, I don't think that this makes me better (or better qualified) than an equally intelligent kid born to a below the poverty line family who just never had the opportunities to learn as much as I luckily did. If that kid were born into a wealthy family he or she could have had the same opportunities that I did and done equally as well as I did...but being born into poverty made him seen less qualified because he just did not have the opportunities to learn that I did.</p>
<p>I think 'growth' and 'hard work' are important concepts to keep in mind in terms of AA. What a person does with what they have should be what is considered. If you are underpriveleged economically, it's impressive if you hold a steady job to make money for your family and self-study AP. If you are fairly advantaged, it's impressive to make a difference in your community with a great volunteer history and get straight As with APs etc. </p>
<p>My conclusion is that your economic background should be taken into account only for adcoms to understand what you started with. Then it's where you've taken yourself that counts. If that's economic AA, I'm all for it. If it's 'you're family doesn't have a lot of money so even if you sit on your lazy butt all day you'll get in' I'm against it. I'm against racial AA. After all, if you're one of the lower class URMs, then you'll get advantages from either.
btw, I'm white middle class.</p>
<p>i agree silverpebble...it's about what you've done with what your given. If you're poor I have no problem letting someone in that appears less qualified when in reality they took full advantage of the little they were given.</p>
<p>Fully support economic AA. It only makes sense.</p>
<p>Completely disagree with racial AA. Saying that being born white is an innate advantage in the US is such a ridiculous and offensive statement. What about the whites born in the inner-city districts, whose parents rely on welfare? What about the ones living on subsistence farms in the dirt-poor rural areas of the South? Where are the advantages these people have? Is it their fault that they ended up being both poor and white?</p>
<p>What about people from different countries? I have a friend who was born in an Eastern European nation and immigrated here when he was younger. His parents started out the first few years with incomes below the poverty line. Where was the white advantage for them?</p>
<p>I think that sometimes, economic AA and racial AA are the same things. And I support both. I mean come on, who are we kidding? Most of the high executives in companies and the most successful people in terms of money and job status are white. This means that somewhere along the way, for reasons which are sometimes undefinable, minorities have not been able to rise to the top. I think what the universities are trying to do is have a diverse population (that's something we all look for in a university, isn't it?) and since some minorities are disadvantaged they just take that into account in the admissions process.</p>
<p>Blink is such a good book! totally agree with you, pyroclastic</p>
<p>AA is needed. How many Whites can honestly accept a Black person with equal qualification being their boss. A Black person needs minimum a Masters Degree to compete against a White person who has a Bachelors Degree. </p>
<p>This is the way things are in the Good Olde USA believe it or not.
Consequently, therefore, it is indeed necessary to use some mechanism to correct this wrong. AA based on race is the most logical solution, once its not abused.</p>
<p>
[quote]
AA is needed. How many Whites can honestly accept a Black person with equal qualification being their boss.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're exactly right. No white person would accept that. In fact, no one would accept that at all. I don't care what race my boss is, if I'm as qualified as he is, he shouldn't be my boss.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A Black person needs minimum a Masters Degree to compete against a White person who has a Bachelors Degree.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Evidence?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Most of the high executives in companies and the most successful people in terms of money and job status are white.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First you need to define most. Next, you have to show that in certain industries, the proportion of african-americans compared to the proportion of whites is less than that in the population.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To the people who oppose racial AA: Merely being a member of certain races exposes you to prejudice, regardless of your economic status.</p>
<p>When Thurgood Marshall was a Supreme Court justice and rode the elevator to work every morning, white tourists would ask him to "push two, please," thinking that he was the elevator boy. He was very well-educated, throughly gentrified and among the greatest jurists of his era but still faced pervasive discrimination. The whites ordering him around didn't think of themselves as racist, but they still had strong unconsious impulses towards unfairness.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This was when they still had elevator boys? 40 years ago?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Malcolm Gladwell's new book "Blink" provides another example. Most people, including the half-black author, take less time in a psychological test to associate whiteness with positive concepts and blackness with negative concepts than if asked to do the reverse. This is simply a reflection of the culture of America today. We will hopefully do away with this prejudice once and for all one day, but until then it is worthy to recognize the largely unconsious bigotry minority groups face. That is why race-based affirmative action is still necessary today.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And why does this matter? What does associating blackness with crime/negative stuff do? Its not like people are going to get arrested based on associations. </p>
<p>It happens to ALL minorities (maybe even whites too). Honestly, I know there are those out there who think less of me because I'm Asian or what not, but I honestly don't care about their opinions about me, because I know I'm above that. I don't see how scattered racism somehow inhibit blacks in general from achieving. </p>
<p>There will always be people who are intolerant of others. It's just always going to be around. There will always be "Klansmen" and terrorists.</p>
<p>Edit: Oh yeah, I stated it earlier, but I'll say it again. I DO support economic AA, because thats a whole different story...</p>
<p>Being that I am not a racist, I don't support any form of racial AA. </p>
<p>As far as economic AA, well, I don't have a problem with colleges giving financial aid to those in need over those not in need. However, I also don't think that people in lower income brackets should be given special consideration in the admissions process.</p>
<p>I'm poor and white, and I support racial AA, but I'm not sure on economic. My family has never had much money, and no, there was no way I was going to have an SAT tutor or take prep classes or travel extensively or go to a prestigious high school. But--I have never been discrimated against (except in elementary school when the stupid boys wouldn't let me play football with them cuz i'm a girl...b****rds). Maybe a rich black kid would have had more opportunities, but let's not pretend racism doesn't exist. Even if it is more prevalent where I live than most places, that black kid would undoubtedly have experienced it. Perhaps there was an English teacher who graded his work more harshly-simply because he/she, either consiously or sub-consiously, didn't think an african american student could do the best work. Maybe the GC wrote a less enthusiastic recommendation. Maybe the sports coach didn't give as many chances. Maybe he/she was just excluded from various games and activities. Whether these things relate directly to college admissions or not, they do matter in the way in the affect they have on the person.</p>
<p>For economic AA--I just don't know. I still got in to all the colleges I wanted to get into, including some very selective LACs. Maybe I just have to same attitude as the URM who doesn't like racial AA, and I don't want to accept any extra help. It seemed like colleges looked at what I did with the available opportunites anyway, at least as far as school goes. I didn't have AP classes, since my school didn't offer them, but I did arrange independent study classes to continue learning about some subjects after I'd taken all the classes offered. Obviously, it would be unfair to compare an upper-class applicant with me, and say, "well, I see ________ traveled to Africa to volunteer and participated in a leadership academy, while Cynthia spent the summer working part time and attending a state academic camp. _____________ is clearly the better applicant." I think it would be a whole lot more useful for more colleges to have better financial aid for very low income students. Many of the colleges that accepted me were not financially possible for me to attend without going heavily into debt, which I didn't want to do. </p>
<p>In a way, I support it. Poor kids have less opportunities. But lots of kids have less opportunities for a whole variety of reasons. What about the rich kid whose parents would rather spend the money on themselves than on prep classes? Or whose parents just didn't spend much time with him/her? What about overweight kids? They tend to have much lower self confidence.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But lots of kids have less opportunities for a whole variety of reasons.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That about sums it up, everyone has challenges. It's all about overcoming the challenges.</p>
<p>If I had a dollar for every time I've heard "razor eyes," "Chink," or "Japper," I'd be rich.</p>
<p>The thing is, as far as race goes, the stereotypes do make a difference. A lot of people believe in them. And the stereotype of African-Americans is about the exact opposite of the stereotype of Asian-Americans. I'm not saying the racism an Asian experiences matters less than the racism an African american experiences, but expectations in school make a pretty big difference in accomplishments, and not all teachers are perfectly open minded. They might see a black student and think "Oh, who cares, he's just gonna be on welfare, in a gang, living off my tax money anyway...can't expect him to understand calculus." and see an Asian student and think "D*mn chinks, taking all our best jobs--but at least they're good at Calculus."</p>
<p>But this is supposed to be about economic AA. I suppose, overall, I think it is more of a good thing than a bad thing. I'm sure if I'd grown up in a wealthier area, I would feel a lot more deprived. As it is, I fit in pretty well economically with my classmates. Their families may have slightly more money, but mine is pretty good at managing what money we do have (ie, not going into debt, not spending huge amounts). But I'm sure my SAT score would have been higher with a prep class, and my application quite likely would have been better with a decent counselor, and I'd know more about lots of stuff if I'd gone to a better high school, and if the students I'm competing with had all that, I suppose a slight admissions "boost" would be fair. On the other hand...I don't think I needed it, and I'm not exactly a super genius. But many of the kids where I live, some of whom are just as smart as I am, would have needed it, and would have deserved it.</p>
<p>So when does AA on race ever stop? I mean, will there ever be a point when you won't have people who are racist for whatever reason? </p>
<p>And what does it solve exactly? Sure, for those URMs who wanted to go to college, they might end up at a better college. Thus the minority upper classes are better educated (of course, even this depends - it's what each person makes of their experience that determines how well he is educated, not a school.) What are you solving? Having a degree at a top college isn't going to stop the boss form being racist. What happens to the majority of the minority? The ones who will never get a chance to benefit from AA because they're never going to apply or go to college? These are the people who I think need the help, and they need it early. Not once they are nearly 18, when their lives are essentially already determined.</p>
<p>In my opinion, AA on race basically pays lip-service to the real needs of minorities, and it ignores important economic realities. It's a nice way for the advantaged folks to feel good about themselves. "Why worry about the huge advantage I was born with compared to others? They have AA to even it out."</p>
<p>Did any of you take a course called Slavery 101 in HS? No! I bet. HS in the US only teaches about founding fathers who were men of impeccable and august character. However, no one ever refers to their dirty little secret. George Washington slave master!! Thomas Jefferson slave master! Eventhough, I like TJ I must criticize him on this issue. I do admire his genius, may be I should go a little easy on TJ. And I must also take Franklin out of this. However, I am still telling the truth. moving along...</p>
<p>A very good friend of mine from Germany told me that teaching the Holocaust is mandatory in German high schools. However, in the US slavery is hardly mentioned.</p>
<p>No White person who is alive now is responsible for slavery. however, there are many problems still lingering. It is always good to know your history so you do not repeat the mistakes of the past in any form. </p>
<p>In the 1980' s President Reagan paid reparations to the relatives Japanese Americans who were interned during WWII. However, there has never been reparations for Blacks. Personally, I believe reparation will be counter-productive for Blacks. I believe a little bit of AA will go a long way to correcting present and past wrongs. </p>
<p>I was very fortunate to have parents who had the money to send me to a good prep school. Consequently, I was able to attend top colleges in the US and abroad without needing AA. However, there are many Blacks who need a little lift. If you are a smart person you are going to get into HYPS regardless. If your parents attended HYPS you are most like going to get in anyway why worry.</p>