<p>Sarahsmom42, I'm so glad you brought up NAMBA. You see,even we have common ground too. I don't think NAMBA members should be tolerated. Now of course, you neglected to mention grown men with 9 year old girls, but I assume that's ok because, you know, that's not a "gay thing".</p>
<p>Sodomy vs. Bigamy? The last time I checked, sodomy was between 2 consenting adults. Bigamy, that's a Mormon thing, isn't it? ;) </p>
<p>And Jesus in drag - interesting - ever read any of the serious scholarly literature discussing whether any of the disciples were gay? You know, all these liberal Jewish guys running around in robes rebelling against the establishment. Sounds pretty gay to me.</p>
<p>Sarahsmom42: After you disparaging remarks about the obese on a different thread I begin to think the only people you approve of are those like you. I don't think you are really disguising your intolerance. Why so much anger against others who are just strugging human beings, just as I presume you are, unless your life, unlike the rest of ours, is perfect.</p>
<p>Michael,
I haven't read about the disciples being gay, but there were more than five, right? Hey, chances are good.
mythmom, I've had plenty of struggles and continue to have them. I'm just dang tired of having MY RIGHTS infringed upon by people who think that they are entitled to special privelages because they overeat and don't exercise. Oh, by the way. I'll just get it out there right now that I'm not fond of smokers either, so I just thought I'd get that out there. Smokers, you can hate me all you like. I can't breath with you around, so I avoid you at every turn.</p>
<p>I have been following this topic with interest, but have not commented because I prefer not to get into arguments about religion. And this discussion has been a very clear illustration of the fact that arguments about religion often turn into wars. So I hope no one will misinterpret my comments as a statement of my religious beliefs. After re-reading the original Playbill article, I feel that the original issue is more of a procedural than a religious one. To explain what I mean, I'd like say this:</p>
<p>I work regularly as a director/performer at a theater that is located at, and sponsored by a Presbyterian church, of which I am not a member. They are very supportive of the performing arts, but do exert control over the subject matter that is presented. I don't always agree, but must respect their wishes because they offer the location and opportunity to perform for many actors. Some of the shows they have vetoed are Jesus Christ Superstar, Chicago, Evita, and Company. As a director, I would NEVER cast and rehearse a show without the express permission of the person in charge, whoever that might be; particularly if there was anything remotely controversial involved. That's just foolish and poor planning. If you've ever been involved with any religious organization, you should understand that it's a "corporate" mentality. So:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Ms. Papin, although she is director of the school's fine-arts program and director of La Cage, is not the boss. She is an employee who neglected to inform the Diocese that she intended to produce the show. That was her mistake. She should have known better.</p></li>
<li><p>The Bishop did not hear about the show until just before it was due to open. No one from the production even spoke to him; he read about it in a local paper. He then made the decision to cancel the production. Whether or not we agree with the decision, that's his job -- to oversee events in the diocese. He undoubtedly felt ambushed by the fact that he was never consulted. In fact, it sounds to me like it was quite intentional. Again, I feel Ms. Papin is to blame here. Perhaps if she had approached the Bishop early on, and had a reasonable discussion with him, he would have seen things her way. Maybe not -- but her actions eliminated that possibility.</p></li>
<li><p>"Ms. Papin and cast member's parents rallied around the production"...and the show went on in another location. That was certainly their right. Clearly the parents did not feel La Cage was a threat to their children -- and this seems a clear illustration of the "parents' rights" issue that Gilbert has mentioned. </p></li>
<li><p>It has been mentioned in this thread that if you don't like a church's message, you don't have to belong to it. It would be very interesting to know what is happening to those parents and children who were involved in this controversy. Are they still members of the church, or has this issue turned them against it? And what about the other members of the church -- do the majority of them support the Bishop's decision? I don't know the answers to these questions -- but it would certainly make for (another) interesting discussion.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Wow, folks. What's missing in this discussion is that this is the way art changes the world. It's not like some schmo writes a play and everyone suddenly becomes enlightened when they see it. No. Somebody puts it on in a time and place where it strikes a nerve, the "conservative" element takes measures to keep it under wraps, and there is much discussion ... These changes in society take time. Bravo to the director! Bravo to the students! Bravo to the parents! Bravo to the local theatres! Even ... Bravo to the Bishop for bringing it to everyone's attention! </p>
<p>As for censorship in this case ... Yes, it's there, but ... Think of what could have happened in the past ... The director (and the writer) might have been imprisoned, put in the stocks, put on the rack, drawn and quartered, burned at the stake ... The students (and maybe even their parents) could have been excommunicated, expelled, shunned or any of the above for going on with it ... All kindsa nasty stuff ... Just that not happening is a sign of progress though similar things could still happen in some places in the world ... In this case, everyone just banded together and put it on in a presumably much better venue than a school auditorium. How cool is that? </p>
<p>But, even when all this is over and same sex couples are lawfully recognized by the law ... What comes next? Who will be left for the "right" to persecute? There'll have to be somebody ... There's a need. And I leave you with a foot stompin' country song by Kris Kristofferson circa 1972 ...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Jesus was a Capricorn, he ate organic foods.
He believed in love and peace and never wore no shoes.
Long hair, beard and sandals and a funky bunch of friends.
Reckon they'd just nail him up if He come down again.</p>
<p>'Cos everybody's got to have somebody to look down on.
Who they can feel better than at anytime they please.
Someone doin' somethin' dirty, decent folks can frown on.
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me ... :)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>P.S. If you want some real fun, Google "Angels in America" along with "Gang of five" for something that happened not soooo long ago. :)</p>
<p>Hey fishbowl...nice to "see" you again. You are so right....to me that IS the point (and NOT discussing religious points of view or gay marriage or any of that!). The point is that art can provoke thought. It brings ideas out that can even be shunned if that's what you think of the ideas. But it raises awareness, brings discussion, gets you to think, etc. One need not agree with the ideas presented in a play or book or work of art. Art can change the world indeed.</p>
<p>To follow up on how art can change the world.....it jarred my memory of the required courses for all of Tisch freshmen (this includes drama, film, dance, recorded music, and dramatic writing students) since that was two years ago for my own daughter.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The Tisch School of the Arts Core Curriculum began in the Fall of 2001 and was developed for all incoming undergraduate students as a way for students to have a common experience and to integrate students' various professional interests. The courses mix different artistic media, and combine practical and theoretical approaches to achieve a comprehensive grasp of the work that art can do in the world.</p>
<p>The Core Curriculum is required of all Freshmen and fulfills their Expository Writing requirement (transfer students will be evaluated as to whether or not they have previously fulfilled their writing requirement upon receipt of their final transcript). The Core Curriculum consists of two courses - Art in the World offered in the Fall semester and The World Through Art offered in the Spring semester. All incoming Freshmen must take both semesters. Each course consists of a plenary lecture given by a Tisch Senior Faculty member that meets once a week and a workshop that meets twice a week for both Fall (Writing the Essay) and Spring (Writing the World) semesters. These writing courses are intensive, interdisciplinary and collaborative. Lectures and workshops focus on how to read complex texts for an understanding of their arguments, and how to write well-reasoned essays supported by evidence. These courses are designed to foster an appreciation of how arts relate to each other and to society in a changing world. These courses will allow students to reflect on a range of social and ethical issues as they pertain to their own creativity.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I mean this very topic being discussed on this thread as to art relating to society and that art can provoke thought and raise awareness and discussion of social and ethical issues is what some of us are saying is something that ought not to be squelched.One doesn't have to AGREE with the ideas in a work of art, but through the art, an understanding or discussion of important issues can be raised. For those who are looking to become artists, it seems like a basic given to have that understanding of what art can do and the place of arts in society.</p>
<p>PS...you are right that kudos go to the Bishop as his actions brought this to the attention of people beyond the local community. That is how change happens!</p>
<p>There is already a thread about that in the Parents Forum. I personally think that is off topic for this thread. You may wish to mosey over there as there is quite a discussion ensuing.</p>
<p>I'm sorry to bring up an old thread here, but I've been reading some of this and I just thougt that I would put my two cents in.</p>
<p>One thing I have thought is a problem with the modern theater for a longtime is that the writers, directors, producers and so on seem to forget that about half the country (and I'm speaking as an American here) holds fairly Conservative view points, and when play after play, movie after movie shows them as being stupid, evil rednecks who want to starve babies and beat up the homeless you are going to lose a huge potential audience.</p>
<p>Speaking as a conservative myself (shocking I know, but there are about 5 MT conservatives in the world today) I don't like when a show takes a clearly liberal stance, but I also wouldn't like a clearly conservative stance. </p>
<p>In my mind liberals and conservatives have more in common than they like to admit, look at the movie "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" for instance, every liberal will say James Stewarts character was a liberal and every conservative will say James Stewarts character was a conservative. I think it would be great if there were more shows like that, a message show where a liberal and a conservative could both watch without feeling that there views were being mocked and ridiculed.</p>
<p>The timing of this thread getting resurrected is personally funny for me. Anyone who has read the thread knows my position and views on the appropriateness of "controversial" roles for students serious about theater, including roles involving homosexuality and lesbianism.</p>
<p>I had dinner with my daughter (who is a freshman MT student) last night and she was filling me in on auditions and call backs she had for the spring shows at her school. Of the 6 call backs she had, 2 of them involved roles as a lesbian in a work based on Gertrude Stein's "Lifting Belly" and the call backs required her to passionately kiss 2 other young ladies. A third call back required her to play the role of a prostitute in a show being put together by Edd Kalehoff and Andrea McArdle. It was all I could do to keep from choking on my food from laughter as she described to me the call backs and I flashed back to this thread.</p>
<p>Karma, ain't it grand ! :) It will be interesting to see what she learns from the experience if she gets any of those roles.</p>
<p>I thought of this thread recently too. My D's high school spring musical is Bat Boy. I know this show has caused controversy at several high schools and I am thankful that it won't be a problem at her school.</p>