<p>It's been many moons since I posted here, but I wanted to share this piece <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/10/AR2007091001174.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/10/AR2007091001174.html</a> from today's Washington Post. It connects the dots between overinvolved, over-praising parents and disrespectful kids. Now, I'm sure that doesn't describe any parent/child involved with this forum, or any parent/child involved with MT...lol. But because MT kids' talents and accomplishments so often get lavish praise not only from their parents but from wildly applauding audiences, I thought you'd find the article interesting.</p>
<p>Great article, artsymom! I especially loved the part where the author talks about how, in the past, parents seemed able to stop misbehavior or disrespect with a single look. Oh, yeah! I remember that look. (My sister, a third grade teacher, can still do it. I have seen her stop misbehaving kids at 30 paces in a shopping mall with that look. :)) My dad could make me cry simply by raising one of his eyebrows. It meant I had disappointed him.</p>
<p>Indeed, this is both the curse and advantage of our generation. Those of use who are blessed to be at the upper ends of our socioeconomic ladder have the time and economic resources to allow our kids to pursue enrichment activities. We simply do not have to worry about the cost. Yet at the same time we worry about the values such luxury imbues our kids with.</p>
<p>This became plain to me this last week when a number of kids at my D’s high school pursued private lessons and coaching for the fall musical’s call backs, while a number of families could not consider it because of the cost. It was sad and played out in the casting.</p>
<p>Setting the economic fairness aside, I find the parenting aspect a balancing act. I remember learning the power of that “look.” A quick turn of the head followed by a scowl reduced my D to tears. While I meant to send a strong rebuke, it was not my intention to wither her. </p>
<p>I actually find the values of MT to fit my parenting values nicely. I am willing to invest my time, my money and my appreciation of her talent. In return my D is expected to be responsible, work hard and do her best, with the understanding that there will be disappointments – she will not get every part and she will not always be the star. </p>
<p>However, with talent, luck, hard work and perseverance, good things and appreciation will come. Let’s hope it is a lesson all our kids will learn.</p>
<p>My internet is having "issues", so I haven't gone to the link; however, I would like to respond to a couple of Ken's comments about coaching, the cost, and how that played out in the casting. The demographics of our school district have changed fairly rapidly in the last 10-15 years, from what used to be an affluent suburb, and now being landlocked into an "inner-ring" school district. Our free lunch program has gone from less than 5%, to more than 30%. The music department recently wrote a grant which will provide seed money for scholarships for private lessons for music students - band, orchestra, and chorus. There is a 2 page application, and it does include need basis, and the recommendation of the group's director. Scholarships will range from $5-$15 per lesson, with the balance to be paid by the student. (Lessons in our area typically range from $12-$20) Maybe some of the more fortunate parents could search opportunities to create something like that for others. Also, although not quite the same impact as private lessons - is there a possibility of finding someone who could do some group coaching? A college student, a grad of the program?</p>
<p>Also - just a side note, which most likely doesn't apply to most people already reading this boad -- while lessons or coaching right before auditions may be of some help in the short run, anyone seriously interested in pursuing MT needs to be in regular lessons and training - not mini-crash courses for specific roles.</p>
<p>And, while I have been able to provide most of the training my daughter has needed/wanted, it has involved a bit of prioritizing on my part, as well as the family's. Like Ken, we are happy to do so, with the understanding that D does her part in terms of practice, showing responsibility, etc.</p>
<p>Is getting pre-callback coaching really such a big deal? Our lead in the musical last year did it- we're not sure why, though, because she's undeniably the best singer in the entire school and everyone knew she'd get the part. I honestly can't imagine there being drama over something like that, but then, the music department (/drama department, which technically doesn't really exist anymore) is really supportive.</p>
<p>re: the article, I WISH parents still could do things like The Look! I spend about 10-15 hours a week with other people's kids (either babysitting or at an after-school care program at my old school) and although the vast majority of the kids are incredibly sweet, there are two or three who are just little brats! One boy in the program regularly cries if he doesn't get his way or if he gets out in tag or dodgeball. One of the girls spits. Their parents insist that "it's just a phase". (the spitting? maybe. but I've babysat for the boy, and he is incredibly spoiled.)</p>
<p>Chelly, pre-audition or callback coaching in high school is not a big deal to the person or people who can afford it, but what about the kids whose parents cannot afford it? I think that was MusThCC's point. (MusThCC, I hope I am not misrepresenting your point of view. If I am, please set me straight!!) Of course, I have understood for a long time that the world is not fair! But MusThCC's idea is a good one. We are fortunate in our area because there are two great public arts high schools where talented kids study everything from acting to dance to visual arts to instrumental and vocal music, including private lessons in those disciplines. Admission is by audition only, but tuition is free unless you live outside the district.</p>
<p>Thank you NMR - that was one of my points - that if having the means to provide limitless support for your children presents an unfair advantage over others who may have more raw talent skews part assignment, that is unfortunate. </p>
<p>It is not really an issue at our school, but it seems like it was at Ken6038's, to whom I was responding. And, I have certainly heard of schools where it was even more flagrant - parents who contributed most (time or $$) to the Boosters club, etc. often had kids who got leads, deserved or not.</p>
<p>ChellyBelly - the main issue I would have for pre-callback coaching, is that I think it is another example of people short-cutting the system. For those serious about performing, that quick fix mentality isn't going to prove nearly as beneficial longterm as regular study in voice/dance/acting. If the sole goal is the lead in the HS musical - go for it. But, I wonder how many people take that same thought into college audition prep?</p>
<p>If I ever have the urge to return to clinical practice, all I'll have to do to read that article to remind me of one of the principle reasons I left to become a cloistered academic.</p>
<p>I can't even begin to enumerate the reasons that the research quoted in that article is truly awful stuff.</p>
<p>Yeeeech!</p>
<p>But Tarhunt, isn't most research done by "cloistered" academics? ;) I am sure I am not the only one here who would love to hear why you think the research cited in the article is flawed. Care to expound on that a little bit?</p>
<p>NotMama:</p>
<p>It would take a while to go over that article sentence by sentence, which is the treatment it deserves. I don't have the time right now. But just for an example, the research on self-esteem is just awful (or most of it is, anyway). Usually, the questionnaires measure self-opinions on how good someone thinks s/he at various tasks, or how much of a given, admired attribute s/he thinks s/he has. The problem is that the questionnaires tend to equate bravado and/or arrogance with self-esteem. Bravado and arrogance tend to be, in fact, defense mechanisms employed to cover low self-esteem if one defines the term in a particular way (and there are at least three major definitions of "self esteem" out there, which makes things a bit confusing, n'est pas?).</p>
<p>At my suggestion, some of my grad students have taken "self-esteem" questionnaires and administered both the quesionnaire and a follow up Minnesota Multiphasic and found a high degree of relationship between self-reported "self-esteem" and elevated levels of schizophrenia (especially on issues of self worth), depression, and paranoia. The elevated levels of paranoia fit quite nicely with sensitivity over "disrespect" so prevalent among cultural groups that tend to meet disrespect with violence, yet score highly on so-called "self-esteem" tests.</p>
<p>Yes, you are right. We cloistered academics tend to do the research, but some of that research is simply awful, and other research is good but often taken completely out of context by clinicians and popularized in articles like this one.</p>
<p>Let me reiterate .... Yeeechh.</p>
<p>So, Tarhut, you don't see this kind of "over parenting" in your work?</p>
<p>Sarahsmom42:</p>
<p>I don't think that "over parenting" is a useful term.</p>
<p>Tarhut,</p>
<pre><code>Sorry! Do you find students to be respectful? Do they have inflated opinions of themselves? Please do share your insight on the subject even if my terminology is insufficient.
</code></pre>
<p>Sarahsmom:</p>
<p>No need to be sorry. I didn't mean to be short with you, though I know it came off that way.</p>
<p>I find the students at my large, state university to be (for the most part) sort of sluggish, but not rude or disrespectful. If they have inflated opinions of themselves, I haven't noticed it. They will fight for a grade, but I'm not entirely sure they think their work is all that good (usually). They just think they should get a good grade for effort, or a good grade because they're trying to get into law school or med school or what have you.</p>
<p>The reason I didn't find the term "over parenting" to be useful is that there is good parenting, bad parenting, and parenting in between, but I don't understand what over parenting would be. I'm also very reluctant to discuss parenting, because so many people I know, whether parents or not, are quite sure they know the only right way to parent, and get pretty huffy if someone else (who also knows the only right way to parent) has a different approach.</p>
<p>Thanks, Tarhut</p>
<p>OK, I posted the link to the article, so obviously I found it worthwhile. I don't have Tarhunt's background and therefore can't apply the same professional skepticism. But even if the foundation of the research and reporting is softer than one might like, I still think there are valid points in the article. And Tarhunt, I think you pinpointed one (even if inadvertently) when you said that students at your university "just think they should get a good grade for effort." We praise our kids for doing their best, for trying their hardest -- and that's wonderful, unless we overdo it so much that they start to think that's ALL they have to do, EVER. Nobody's wonderful at everything, and a grad school or prospective employer won't melt at a kid's heartfelt efforts the way a loving parent will. The Four Tops said it in an entirely different context, but it's still true: sometimes "your best just ain't good enough." For better or worse, that's life, and learning it is part of growing up. I suspect that many of our kids learn it later than they might -- or should -- because they get so darn much parental praise from for everything.</p>
<p>artsy:</p>
<p>You're assuming cause and effect where there may be none. The reason these kids fight on grades could come from one or more of the following sources (or from a source that isn't occurring to me right now):</p>
<ol>
<li> Peers who tell them it works (it does with some faculty some times)</li>
<li> Increasing pressure on GPA for grad school admission as grade inflation across the US continues</li>
<li> Learned behavior from changes in high schools</li>
<li> The practice of publishing student reviews of faculty which puts pressure on faculty to improve grades to improve reviews</li>
<li> Societal changes in parenting techniques</li>
</ol>
<p>One of the things that causes me to be suspicious of your hypothesis is that I've done many scores of focus groups and tens of questionnaires in large, US businesses around the issue of pay. I often hear from boomers and others that their pay isn't "fair" because they put in the same effort as everyone else. Or they've been in their jobs longer. Or they have greater financial needs. Etc. So, that would suggest that this attitude doesn't exist only among today's young people.</p>