Censorship and closed minds do not always prevail!

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>Sarahsmom, I would respectfully submit that you have no idea what my intentions were when I posted about this story. Your assumption that it was to irritate or provoke you, or others, couldn't be further from the truth. You've been around long enough, and read the MT forum long enough, I would hope, to know me better than that. It is my opinion, and that obviously of many others here, that the thinking of the Bishop involved in this decision was closed-minded, for all of the reasons already delineated in the discussion that followed the original post. </p>

<p>You are misinterpreting what happened apparently because it was NOT the "people who did not want this play at their church based school", it was the Bishop alone who banned this show from proceeding after casting, rehearsals, advertising, and all plans were completed. The administration, teachers, students, and parents involved had no objection.</p>

<p>You also have misinterpreted the entire drag queen as MIL discussion, which in my opinion was a straw man inserted by SS into the discussion and which truly is beside the point. No one here "hoped for a drag queen" as their MIL. What I felt was made abundantly clear was that many of us would not automatically discount a person's worth, ability to love, or capability of being a wonderful MIL or grandmother, simply because of who/what that individual was. I don't recall anyone saying that they "hoped" for a drag queen as a MIL to their child. Please don't twist things like that, it's not helpful to the discussion.</p>

<p>We spent many summers on the Cape and our family visited Provincetown many times. I don't even recall seeing any drag queens there, so don't make it sound like the streets are full of them! There is a large gay population there, both year round residents and summer guests, but they are certainly not the majority. It, like many Cape towns, is a wonderful spot to visit. Are you really saying you avoided Provincetown because there happen to be a lot of gay people there?! </p>

<p>Lastly, not all drag queens die of AIDS. Why is that even relevant to this discussion?</p>

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<p>Direct quote: "I wish my mother-in-law was a transvestite, I really do."</p>

<p>alwaysamom I'm sincerely sorry if I've misinterpreted this thread. I must really be suffering from a brain freeze or something. It just it seems to me that you really don't know if the Bishop was ALONE in his views or in his actions. They started rehearsing the show at a summer workshop but planned to open after school started, right? I could be wrong, I only read the article once and I'm a little slow.
SoozieVT said that it was hard to avoid running into drag queens in P Town and she made it sound like it was part of the attraction.
What I was trying to say in my post (and again I'm a little slow) was that after reading the comments of MichaelNKat and ChellyBelly I spent some time really reflecting and I felt moved.
P Town:
I'm not very comfortable with PDA. My husband and I hold hands and give each other an occasional kiss or hug in public, but we're generally pretty private people. We avoid P Town because the last time we were there we were practically hit over the head with PDA, gay and hetro and don't care to experience that again. That's my choice, I live in a thriving area and there are many towns that are teaming with culture. We don't like the Cape in general. We don't get it. As far as I'm concerned it's a bunch of over developed crowded tourist traps and getting there and back is a serious pain in the a--. I'll take Cranes beach any day over that rat race. But I'm pretty slow and I'm sure that alwaysamom with set me straight.
Transvestites vs. Drag Queens: Mythmom, my friend was really both. As I said, he was admittedly confused and very unhappy and we had endless discussions about this topic. As I said, I truly loved him.
Mythmom, I'm sorry that your son had to deal with taunting. It's not fun for anyone. I'm very glad that he is happy at his school, best of luck.</p>

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<p>Oh, I forgot... the relevance of the Drag Queen/AIDS thing is that many people mistakenly think that if you would support the Bishop's actions that you could not be supportive of gays/lesbian/transgender people. You can, I do. I suppose that it does not really matter to you that my friend died of AIDS, but it matters to me and so I mentioned it.</p>

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<p>If you're going to quote something, at least quote it in context: " I wish my mother-in-law was a transvestite, I really do. Then at least someone in my family would understand my preoccupation with my daughter's involvement in musical theater. Ooops, that was not very PC of me." Perhaps that was meant as a little bit of much-needed humor in a discussion that was getting awfully heavy.</p>

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<p>Thanks onstage, I'll try to remember that in the future.</p>

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<p>Sarahsmom, while this isn't the topic of the thread, :D, I will reply to your comments referring to mine regarding PTown. In NO way whatsoever do I feel that part of the attraction of PTown is the drag queens!! We don't go there for any reason REMOTELY related to drag queens or the gay community. We enjoy Ptown for a few reasons....one is the National Seashore, a total treasure, including Truro next door where we also have stayed many times. We also enjoy walking around PTown's shops/galleries and eating at so many of the fine restaurants. We love the beach and the ocean and it is one thing our state doesn't have. My husband and I both went to college and graduate school in Boston and so visited Head of the Meadow Beach in Truro a lot in our young adults lives and would camp there on vacation. When we had kids, we chose to take them to the beaches/towns that we enjoyed and our kids do love it. That is WHY we go. I was also commenting on the fact that the gay community frequents PTown, and it likely is due ,in part, that there is an open acceptance of their community. They can be open about who they are there and I imagine meet others they wish to meet. </p>

<p>
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I'm not very comfortable with PDA. My husband and I hold hands and give each other an occasional kiss or hug in public, but we don't generally like to share our sexual relationship with anyone else.

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</p>

<p>I do not understand what you are trying to say in that statement. You say you hold hands and hug or even kiss in public. That is ALL that I am saying that the gay couples also do openly in public in PTown. What's the difference? Is it OK for some and not others? I don't quite understand this point. I understand if you don't feel comfortable with PDA, as those are your feelings and your right and opinion.:) But I can't reconcile that statement with the one that it is OK that you and your hubby do so, but not these gay folks who vacation or live in PTown? Perhaps I have misunderstood you. </p>

<p>As far as "running into Drag Queens" in PTown.....there are drag shows if you wish to attend one...entertainers who impersonate well known singers and that type of thing. Zillions of families visit PTown and most likely do not frequent these shows. However, I imagine some adults do. In all my years of going to PTown, I think I have seen two drag shows and once was with our kids. It was all impersonations of people like Barbara Streisand, Diana Ross, Carol Channing, etc. They also have seen Hairspray where Edna is in drag as well. :D I realize that is not for all people. But you can go to PTown and never ever see a drag show like the huge number of other families. </p>

<p>Actually, this summer when my hubby and I were on vacation in PTown, we saw As You Like It and Forever Plaid in PTown. Both were excellent productions (no drag!....likely some actors were gay as is rather typical) and in fact, the Shakespeare production involved mostly BFA students or graduates of the Guthrie program. In Forever Plaid, one of my D's very talented classmates in her year at CAP21 was the musical director, truly great for someone his age, but I digress. Good theater is in PTown and we also took our kids to a show in Wellfleet while staying in PTown the previous summer and have gone to many theaters on the Cape in fact. </p>

<p>When I was commenting on drag queens, I meant mostly the drag shows that are available in town. However, in PTown, often an "actor" from a show, will stand outside the establishment handing out flyers about the show and so yes, my kids would sometimes see such folks as we walked along the main street there like thousands of others. When my child was young, she did refer to them in her own made up word of "Man-girls" and I recall a couple of times we were in town for the Parade. I recognize others' discomfort but I have no discomfort and in fact, think exposure to a spectrum of types of people is a positive thing. That is not WHY we take our kids to PTown, however. My D has a LOT of gay friends in theater and in college, and so I am glad she was exposed to gay people when younger and has been able to have an open mind from a young age, as she doesn't openly run into that lifestyle as much in our local rural community. I would say that not just about gay people, but about any segment of the population that differs from her own upbringing or lifestyle, race, culture, or religion. </p>

<p>By the way, we LOVE Cranes Beach as you do and spent time there every summer during our years in Boston. As far as a week's vacation as a family, we like the National Seashore on the Outer Cape and enjoy the shows, restaurants and scene that is PTown. My kids grew up in a rural area and just walking around PTown is a treat for them. We often stayed in N. Truro with them. The area attracts many families in fact. PTown may not be everyone's cup of tea but I can't imagine choosing to go or not in relation to the gay population there. I CAN imagine some gay folks choosing it because they can meet other gay people and be out in the open about who they are, which is harder to do in many places of the country.</p>

<p>PS...I might add that Shakespeare's As You Like It, which we saw in July in PTown, involves gender reversals. :)</p>

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<p>Sarahsmom42: Thanks for your good wishes, and I know we wish the same for your children. That my son was taunted wasn't the point, though. He can take it. My point was that we all (yes all of us) have our own areas of bias. Our own always seem more rational than other people's. I made this point to a class this way when the class said that they didn't think gay people should be allowed to raise children (even their own presumably.) I said (half a a joke, but not really) that I didn't think that anyone in Congress who voted for Star Wars should be allowed to raise children. Of course, my bias should not run anything, nor should anyone else's. I think OP was grieving for a situation in which the bias of the Bishop had so much power. This may be the institutionalized bias of the Episcopal Church, at least some parishes, but to some of us on this thread it's still bias.</p>

<p>I love the Cape; you don't. Nothing wrong there. It just feels hurtful to think someone would avoid it to avoid a drag queen rather than traffic. PDA's don't make me uncomfortable, or if they do, I look away. I do, however, understand your feelings.</p>

<p>Perhaps being a hereditary (non-believing) Jew makes me more sensitive to bias against people. I certainly don't have to go into the history of things we weren't allowed to do or the oppression we suffered just because we make some people uncomfortable. And it pains me to think that Hitler would have killed my own beloved children (who by the way are as attractive as Natalie Portman and Paul Newman, two Jews, not that looks matter much.)</p>

<p>You may think a connection between drag queens and Jews is far-fetched, but remember that my father-in-law did counsel against a Jewish wife. So, singling out any kind of person and saying that one wouldn't want that kind of person for a relative is painful. Even if that person is an army colonel (the military being a way of life very different from mine.)</p>

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<p>
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Are you really saying you avoided Provincetown because there happen to be a lot of gay people there?!

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</p>

<p>Before becoming too outraged, head on over to the other threads in which parents unabashedly proclaim that their children refused to apply to any colleges in "red states," or, as one poster referred to them, "redneck states." It always amazes me that writing off the entire populations of certain states as inferior is somehow never deemed offensive.</p>

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<p>I really was going to restrain myself. My wife said if I spent anymore time on this Board today when we are both home for the holiday she would strangle me. Somehow I always seem to get sucked back in.</p>

<p>And it's all your fault Sarahsmom42. Here's the full quote of my comment, which you took out of context:</p>

<p>"I wish my mother-in-law was a transvestite, I really do. Then at least someone in my family would understand my preoccupation with my daughter's involvement in musical theater. Ooops, that was not very PC of me."</p>

<p>Who else here thinks that I was saying, if you will excuse the term, "with a "straight face" that I a) want my mother-in-law to become a transvestite or b) would like to replace her with a transvestite? Or maybe do you think it was a bit of humor, to lighten what was a serious discussion involving deeply seated feelings about difficult topics. To poke fun at stereotypes, you know like gays and MT, to poke fun at my own preoccupation with my daughter's career path and the ribbing I get from family and friends. Or maybe, on second thought, it wouldn't be such a bad idea. But that's a whole different discussion more suited for the "Inlaws Board".</p>

<p>And for the record, would I want my son or daughter to marry someone whose parent is a drag queen or transvestite? Yeah, sure, because, you know, in this day and age, newlyweds have nothing else to preoccupy their minds with. Housing's cheap, wages are exceeding the pace of inflation, the job market is expanding, there's universal health insurance at reasonable costs. Kids today need a little challenge in their lives. Having the grandparents come to the grandkids elementary school shows would be a hoot. Everyone should have a little controversy in their lives to keep them on their toes.</p>

<p>But if it did happen, the one thing I wouldn't do is sit in judgment. I wouldn't spurn my kid instead of engaging in open and constructive dialogue. And on a certain level, that's exactly what happened when the show in question was stopped. The religious authorities that did it turned away from the opportunity to have constructive dialogue with the congregation that had approved the show, the local ministry, cast and crew which could have led to a greater understanding by all parties of each other and the issues.</p>

<p>Just saw that I cross posted with Onstage. Damn, I type slow!</p>

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<p>OK everyone, for the record, you do what you want and I'll do what I want and I'm very sorry if I misunderstood you.</p>

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<p>If everyone in this world were exactly the same, it would be a
very booooring place. :cool:</p>

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<p>Anyone who has or knows young children, may be interested in the children's picture book called People by Caldecott award winning author Peter Spier. I really loved sharing that book when I taught primary grades.</p>

<p>As well, the award winning playwright and composer, Liz Swados, just recorded a children's CD about difference called "Everyone is Different."</p>

<p>Many of us have kids that are teens or in college but may know younger children and so I pass the word on these creative works on the subject that Mainstage just posted in #71.</p>

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<p>Gilbert S.: I agree with you and believe I alluded to this point in my posts. (Re Dartmouth and an army colonel for a father-in-law for a child.) The bias does go both ways. Something we all have to fight.</p>

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<p>Just had to respond to what Gilbert S said, which yes, reveals that biases against certain groups of people exist on all points in the political spectrum! (The funny thing is -- and I have to give credit where it is due, right? -- the self-identified conservatives I know basically admit that they are close minded about some issues, but us self-identified liberals usually take great umbrage if someone suggests the same thing to us! :)) I personally think that limiting a college search to only "blue" or "red" states is one of the silliest things I have ever heard of!! There are fabulous schools all over the country, and fabulous people, too. OK, end of NMR's soapbox. Like MichaelNKat, I had to be drawn into this discussion again.</p>

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<p>Are there actually people who use the 'blue v. red' issue in deciding where to apply? I have to agree that I don't understand that, at all. There are, of course, certain schools which may not appeal to all for reasons other than what state they're in but to exclude all schools within a state simply because its residents have voted one way or another is pretty silly. In the colleges with which I'm familiar, there is certainly a diversity of many demographics, including economic, geographic, political, sexual orientation, ethnic, religious, etc. Obviously, the degree of diversity in each will vary from school to school, but I have yet to come across a college which doesn't have SOME diversity. </p>

<p>I think it's instructive, and valuable, for kids to be exposed to others who may differ from them in a variety of ways. We've always been fortunate in the areas where we've lived since having our Ds to have been able to provide them with that diversity fairly easily, in the school systems in which they've been educated, the soccer teams on which they've played, the various theatre projects they've been involved in, and in the volunteer opportunities in which my H and I have always been involved. </p>

<p>One of my Ds spent a lot of very intense time with a girl at a study abroad program this summer who was probably as diametrically opposed to her as is possible! I remember talking to her after her second day of classes and her telling me about all the kids she met from so many different places, and when she told me about this one and how she was a very strong supporter of GWB (this D spent hundreds of hours volunteering for Democrats Abroad in the last presidential election), I reminded her that every experience has the potential for both positives and negatives. I've always told my kids this, and that, in most situations, the positives far outweigh the negatives, especially when we can learn something. Well, these two became very close friends, despite their very different backgrounds and outlooks. Although neither changed the other's mind about certain positions and beliefs, I think that their willingness to have an open dialogue was beneficial to both. Stepping outside your comfort zone and being willing to listen, discuss, read, view and experience, and then to generate that open dialogue, is always a positive, in my opinion.</p>

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<p>Birds of a feather do tend to flock together, but it's good if they can be accepting of those who are different and have different opinions.</p>

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<p>Indeed, Sarahsmom42. I think it's human to want to be around people who are similar in various ways. The only trouble with a real steady diet of that is that people can come to believe that "everyone" thinks the same way that they do! I know, for instance, some people who, after GWB won the election, said "But nobody I know voted for him!" Well, gosh, maybe that's because most of us (as we said before!) hang around with people who share our basic world outlooks and even, often, our socioeconomic level, backgrounds and so on. This is one reason I am so grateful that my older D (the MT one) attends a very, very diverse (racially, ethnically and socioeconomically) public arts high school that brings together kids who honestly would never interact if it was not for this special place. They not only interact, but they become very, very close friends who stay in touch for years and years to come. I have to tell you that it does my heart good to walk into the place and watch the kids with one another. Makes me think that all those dreams some of us had in the 60s and 70s will someday be a reality.</p>

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<p>Haha. We're back to the beginning of the thread: "Birds of a feather" and THE BIRD CAGE. Well, I think we are all birds of a feather, i.e. human, and what unites us is always more powerful than what divides us, even if we're blind to this sometimes.</p>

<p>In a era of extreme racism I liked Alexander Woolcott's eulogy in the newspaper for the magnificent Afro-American, Paul Robeson. He said, "I am proud to count myself of the same race as he was, human."</p>

<p>Clannishness is not productive in our multi-cultural world, and the most fundamental divide, female/male must be negotiated in most families. </p>

<p>Difference may make us uncomfortable, but we better get used to it because the US is becoming more diverse every day.</p>

<p>Just as interracial marriage was once illegal (the Supreme Court struck down VA's law in 1961) and now the idea of that seems absurd, so too will some of our biases be absurd one day. I am certain that some day same sex marriage will be accepted and legal, even if some religions will still oppose it.</p>

<p>When we all take our place in society on an equal footing bias will contract.</p>

<p>Birds of a feather flock together? How about opposites attract?</p>

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<p>Both are true. My husband works in the computer science industry. He recently hired a man who is first generation Chinese. We invited him and his wife to have dinner at our house. They had been house hunting and were very interested in our home, our town, the towns around us etc. They kept asking us "How many Chinese lived the towns." I was struck by this, but later I realized it made sense. My D says as a computer science major, there are many Asian kids and that many of them stick together. This was true a hundred years ago, only it was the Irish, the Germans, the Italians and so forth. It's natural and it takes time for people to assimilate. Change is always difficult. It will happen, it just isn't happening fast enough for some and others are trying to put the brakes on.</p>

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<p>As is always the case. We agree!</p>