Censorship and closed minds do not always prevail!

<p>I think it's really important that more people- and especially religious institutions- become more accepting (or at the very least, tolerant) of homosexuality.</p>

<p>I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school for nine years. When I was 12, I realised I was gay. I knew that homosexuality was wrong, dirty, a sin. I didn't tell anyone until I was a freshman in high school because I was so ashamed of myself. I thought if I went to church every Sunday and Holy Day and prayed every night, then God would make me "normal" and I wouldn't have to worry about going to Hell. I mean, I was a good Catholic girl- I loved Jesus, I loved God, I read the Bible, and so on.</p>

<p>I was absolutely stunned when I visited my public high school for the first time. In the upper hallway by the main doors, there's a display case for the GSA. I knew that there were people "out there" who were accepting of homosexuality (same-sex marriage was legalized when I was in 7th grade, I think) but I couldn't believe that some of them might be teenagers. I joined GSA, I came out to my new high school friends, and I've been so much happier since. My parents made me get Confirmed last fall, but since then, I haven't been to church except on Christmas and Easter and with my grandparents. </p>

<p>It hurt... so much. It still does. I don't even know what my religious beliefs are anymore; I can't reconcile Catholocism with my homosexuality and my super-liberal political leanings. I remember my freshman year, there was a girl named Katie in GSA. She was a junior who had just transferred to my school. In November or December she came into school bawling, absolutely inconsolable, because her best friend from her old school- who was gay, and raised Catholic- had killed herself. Gay teens are so much more likely than straight teens to commit suicide, and, not to make assumptions, but I'm willing to bet that a significant part of the reason for many of them stems from religious intolerance. </p>

<p>It needs to stop.</p>

<p>mythmom and soozie, </p>

<pre><code> I applaud your spunk and energy, but after years of arguing with my family members, I realized that family peace was my "cause." We have one sister who is gay and she does the same. Maybe we're whimps, but family is really important to us.
</code></pre>

<p>ChellyBelly42,</p>

<p>After I started my previous post, my MIL called and I've been on the phone w/her for a long time. I didn't see your post until after pushed the submit reply button.
I have a sister who is gay and her story is a sad one. I won't get into it here, but I'll just say that I'm glad that you are aware of your sexuality and have been able to come out to your family and friends. I'm really glad that you have found support at your school.
My sister is not a practicing Catholic. She tried to find peace with her sexuality within the church, but realized that because she wanted participate in gay sex, it was not possible. Our Uncle told her that gay sex was not ever going to be accepted in the church, but that celebacy was an option. She did not wish to deny this part of her person and chose not to practice Catholicism. She is quite happy and has a lovely family. I wish you luck.</p>

<p>It certainly appears to be more of a cause for some to change the church, than it does for the church to be poking its nose into gay people's business. I do not see how any gay person is presently being oppressed in this country. They are free to accept their orientation, free to express it sexually, and free to join any number of Christian or non-Christian denominations which would be more than happy to have them and to spiritually bless any union they so choose.</p>

<p>The bishop in this case was acting in accord with directives sent to the U.S. Episcopal church from the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, head of the Anglican communion. Of course, this has been the way of the church for centuries. </p>

<p>I would imagine that most parents who send their children to such a school understand the beliefs of the bishop in charge of the diocese where the school is located. I don't understand the intricacies of this denomination, but the fact that the local administration and teachers in this school might happen to hold beliefs which differ from church doctrine is meaningless.</p>

<p>Hopefully, this letter which I found on the internet by John Howe will clarify what is going on. This was his call, and no, it was not a "mistake." He acted in perfect keeping with his responsibility as an Episcopal priest/bishop.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.cfdiocese.org/news/news07/accord0507.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cfdiocese.org/news/news07/accord0507.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I am simply blown away that some here seem to feel they, and they alone, are the final moral arbiters of what is and what is not "tolerant" and what is, and what is not "censorship!"</p>

<p>As always, JMO.</p>

<p>What some are saying is that while he acted within the keeping of his church's doctrine and rights, is that some feel that the decision to censor the piece reveals intolerance even if it is his right or his church's right to uphold that doctrine. </p>

<p>What if there was a church that said, you cannot read books or see plays about Black people? What about if they said, you cannot view plays that depict Jews? What about plays that depict the acts of Muslims?</p>

<p>I personally disagree with any doctrines from groups that would aim to keep such exposure from its followers. I think you can teach or preach your doctrines and not be at risk that if your followers see materials that expose other ways, that they would stray from their own religious beliefs. That is not the same as condoning or agreeing with such beliefs. </p>

<p>As a citizen I respect any religious group's rights to believe anything they wish. But there are some belief systems that are intolerant of anything but their own people. I think that is NOT a good thing. Some of the big problems going on in the world are due to those who are intolerant of anyone who doesn't belong to their sect or hold similar beliefs. I would frown upon a leader who preaches intolerance of others who differ from their own way. I would much prefer to see a religious leader preach their own belief systems without dimishing others and without open discussion and acceptance of others' ways. By preaching the acceptance of those who differ from their own doctrines, they can go a long way to the world getting along better.</p>

<p>soozie: We agree with each other. And I do think people who oppose bigotry change the world. For instance, apartheid was brought down without bloodshed, something that seemed impossible. Keep fighting the good fight and so will I.</p>

<p>Sarahsmom42: Families are difficult. I can certainly understand your position.</p>

<p>P.S. Thanks to both of you for the kind words. It makes my day.</p>

<p>I have not been on the MT forum in some time and came across this thread and read through (most) of the passionate posts with interests.</p>

<p>My own person POV is that, along with some others here, my hot-button is towards the intolerant actions/beliefs of others. As a young child growing up in Alabama, I was thankfully raised by parents who taught me to hate biggotry. Now, as my kids have dear friends who are struggling with issues of sexuality, my heart aches with the knowledge that many churches do not "welcome" these children.... </p>

<p>We have a long, long way to go. Many of us are trying to get there!</p>

<p>How silly. Being against gay marriage, or against having one's religious denomination bless gay marriages/unions, does not make one a bigot. Nor does being against these in any way "persecute" or "oppress" gay people. Ask any of our presidential candidates (with the lone exception of Kucinich).</p>

<p>Such heightened rhetoric is not necessary, imo.</p>

<p>Gibert, I thought about how you say that homosexuals are free to do this or that in post #144. You say they are not oppressed. But the fact of the matter is, that there is a great deal of bigotry and hatred toward this group of people among plenty of people in the world and it has reared its ugly head often. There are hate crimes against gays, for instance. Homophobia is alive and well. Many homosexuals fear being openly gay and hide in the closet because they won't be accepted and in fact, may be shunned or hated. Many do not have the right to have a legal union as well as other legal rights that straight people have. When I wrote earlier that there are many gay people who live or visit Provincetown, it is due, in part, because the area seems to accept them and it is a place where they can openly be "out" and they can hold hands or not have to hide their orientation which many gay people do in the closet. When you say they have rights and that they are no oppressed, I don't agree in the sense that I think they face things from those who shun them that the average Caucasian non-minority heterosexual middle class Jane or Joe do not face. I think it is harder for them in society. Already, here we have a church that doesn't accept their relationships or won't allow a play that depicts a gay couple with the theme of acceptance. At other religious or other venues, there are groups that oppose performance of The Laramie Project. Why? I don't see this opposition to the average straight person. The gay community DOES face hurdles that you and I do not. Even in history, Hitler practiced racial subjugation and wanted to annihilate gays, Jews, crippled and retarded children, psychiatric patients, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other groups, and to kill "life unworthy of life." (in his view) He wanted to eliminate certain types of people .There are other forms of bigotry such as Apartheid. Then there's the KKK. There are religious wars going on around the world. There are hate crimes going on in our country. Many see such acts or beliefs as evil. </p>

<p>If people do not rise up and question, there will never be change or a move toward accepance of all people. The human race. Not a race that only includes some of us. </p>

<p>Do we live and let live if a religious leader advocates intolerance? Or do we make a collective call to effect change and advocate for acceptance? Acceptance doesn't violate our rights to practice our own religions. I would not want anyone ever to feel pressure to change religions or beliefs. But I would want anyone, no matter their religion, to embrace acceptance of all who are different than themselves. As others have said, "it is really simple"...and yes, it is...."love thy fellow man/woman" no matter who they are or how they differ from yourself.</p>

<p>Art and theater, such as shows like La Cage Aux Folles, can go a long way in advocating for acceptance and tolerance of those who differ from one another. Such a piece of work is not agreeing, condoning, or believing or valuing but merely accepting and being aware of differences. It is not meant to change a person, but to embrace all. Fear and an aversion of those who are different will not get the world to a more peaceful place.</p>

<p>soozie: Now it's my turn to celebrate you. You did what I couldn't face, answer Gilbert S.</p>

<p>Gilbert S: Your position is similar to the Plessy vs. Fergusson case in which the Supreme Court decided in favor of "separate but equal" education. Thank goodness Brown vs. Board of Education, Topeka, KA came along to redress this unfair decision, almost 100 years after the Civil War and 90 years after a Constitutional Amendment made African-Americans equal citizens. (Yeah right.) This position is like Orwell's slogan in ANIMAL FARM: All pigs are equal but some are more equal than others." Separate but equal is an oxymoron. </p>

<p>churchmusicmom: It's wonderful to hear your voice on this thread, and by your screen name we know you've been around many churches. The D's are all settled at Barnard again. How did your wedding go?</p>

<p>I am an adult; please refrain from lecturing me. Thank you.</p>

<p>In all due respect, Gilbert, you are proferring your point of view (which I did not see as a lecture but just an expression of your opinion) and others, including myself are putting out our own points of view. You stated a group is not oppressed and has rights, and others have explained how they see it. One is not more of a lecture than another. It is a discussion of viewpoints and responses.</p>

<p>You began by repeatedly stating that you wanted to "understand" the view of the Episcopal authority (the bishop) in this case. I tried to explain it to you. My statements were relatively short and I gave a link to Bishop Howe's website. I did not say you had to change your mind. You and any others have the option of joining a church/synagogue which is open to blessing gay unions/marriages. </p>

<p>Obviously, you and others here will not rest until ALL churches do this. You will call people names who continue to belong to these churches and abide by the tenants of these churches, which have not changed for 2,000 years, at the birth of Christianity. </p>

<p>You feel entitled to tell the church it must change. I did not read anyone here telling you or mythmom that YOU must change.</p>

<p>Big difference--hence my label "lecture."</p>

<p>I shall bow out now.</p>

<p>Edit: mythmom, many, many people do not see the civil rights struggle and the gay struggle as being the same. This includes black scholars/theologians. I assume you realize you do not speak for everyone.</p>

<p>It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you want children exposed to La Cage in the hope that it will influence these children toward accepting gay marriage. I personally have great trouble understanding and being sympathetic toward the personal hubris which must be involved somewhere in people's feeling of entitlement to take on all of traditional Christianity. This is why I am bowing out.</p>

<p>Fear not, Gil! The Chrisitan Right is alive and well.</p>

<p>Thanks, mythmom. S's wedding was beautiful and they are well and truly happy, so all is good!</p>

<p>Indeed, D is settled in and, though she is developing a cold, seems to be doing well.</p>

<p>Contrary to what you might assume by my screen name, I have NOT been around all that many churches in my lifetime. I am, at present, a music director at the church of which my H and I are members and I love the people there and all that I am learning. I was not "raised" in church, however, and only came to want to have a strong faith-based life experience as an adult. Before that, my strongest aversion to churches existed as a result of people in them acting unjustly to others. That still happens, of course, but I now understand that people are never perfect, in church or out of it.</p>

<p>Sarahsmom42: please understand that your telling Gil that "the Christian Right is alive and well" is pretty insulting to those of us who don't care to be painted with that particular brush and all that it implies in this situation. I am a Christian and am pretty conservative. Heck, I even mostly like George Bush. Most of my friends who are Christian and lean pretty far to the right are quite nice people. </p>

<p>Your placement of all in the (obviously hated, to you anyway) "Christian Right" smacks to me of just as much judgementalism (is that even a WORD??) as other statements to which you have objected strongly on these boards...</p>

<p>Just an obervation.</p>

<p>churchmusicmom: I am happy you have found a fulfilling situation, and congratulations. I am delighted that your son and his wife are happy and well. Hope D's cold clears up; S already had one, my freshman baby.</p>

<p>Gilbert S: I don't see why traditional Christianity should be immune to criticism. It doesn't have a great track record after: developing a theology that includes anti-Semitism; burning women at the stake by accusing them of witchcraft; forcing conversions on pain of death of Jews, Native Americans, and at times, African-Americans; fostering bloody wars between Catholics and Protestants, tacitly condoning the slave trade, imprisoning Galileo, denouncing Darwin, and passively watching the Holocaust occur.</p>

<p>As for the homophobia of "black scholars/theologians" it is the same as anyone else's homophobia.</p>

<p>I don't think I need to inflluence young people to accept gay marriage, nor do I have this on my agenda. I think the next generation is already more accepting of alternate life-styles than ours, and perhaps it could teach me a thing a two, so maybe it does take "rocket science" to understand my postion.</p>

<p>Sarahsmom42: I don't understand your comment. What did you mean?</p>

<p>mythmom and churchmusic,
I meant that there are many Christian churches who will not be accepting gay sex/marriage any time soon, if EVER and that Gilbert does not have to fear that they will ALL be split apart as some are over this issue.
I don't hate ANY churches. Church is good for some, not for others.<br>
If your soul feels fed at one church, great! If it isn't, try something else. Many wars have been fought over religion and it's really silly IMO. Why can't everyone just find something that fits their needs and leave the other folks alone? If you can't tolerate someone elses faith, don't go to their church.</p>

<p>PS, Why isn't there some compassion for all of the Episcopals out there who's church is being ripped apart? I have a friend who is Episcopalian and she really resents it. She was not anti gay before, but she really is now. It's really sad.</p>

<p>See MichaelNKat's excellent post to ChellyBelly.</p>