Chance Me: Lower GPA, above average ECs, straight Asian male for T20s/Ivies [VA resident, 3.76 GPA,32.5 ACT, Poli Sci/History] [parents require "T20" or live at home and commute to college]

Chance Me / Match Me!
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Not sure why I’m even still reading this thread, lol, but I can’t help wondering why the OP is pondering studying history/social sciences (which he evidently enjoys but can’t take seriously because other students at his hyper-competitive HS, who are equally partaking in the jockeying-for-superiority game, have “clowned” him for it) or STEM (which he reportedly finds interesting but also too much work?)… when every career aspiration he has named says “just major in business!” So… why not just major in business? Is it because Wharton is out of reach and no other business program will do?

IU Kelley is top 10 in the nation for business (US News shows it tied with UVA, UMich, USC, and Chapel Hill), and is a feeder for the types of careers OP seems to want. He’d be auto-admitted and likely to the Business Honors Program Business Honors | Bachelor's Degree in Business | Indiana Kelley. It has the big, dynamic, flagship-U vibe that he likes. And Kelley even has some more social-science-adjacent majors, like the absolutely top-notch and quant-heavy Public Policy Analysis major. 20 majors altogether, in the business school alone! Majors Minors Certificates | Bachelor's Degree in Business | Indiana Kelley

But I’m sure none of that matters, because IU isn’t sexy enough prestige-wise for the OP. Unfortunate. Elsewhere in the top 10 for undergrad business, USC and CMU Tepper would be reaches, but perhaps not completely unattainable unless his personal statement reads like his posts in this thread :rofl: Of course, UVA is on this list too, and the advantage of the transfer pathway if considering an undergrad business major is that even four-year students can’t be direct-admitted to McIntire, so transfers and continuing sophomores are all applying for the upper-division program at the same time.

But perhaps simply cutting to the chase and majoring in business also lacks perceived prestige? :woman_shrugging:t2:

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I suppose San Jose State would then be the MIT or CMU of the Cal States, given how many they send to Silicon Valley.

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IU is a great school for just only business (IB semitarget), but I personally find business administration boring whether it be at UVA or Wharton (why would you go to college to study the job you’ll work in for the rest of your life? Isn’t it better to explore another field like science and then work?)

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A few reasons:

  1. You are interested in the subject.
  2. Learning it in school gives you a head start or may be necessary for the job.

#2 is most true for fields like engineering and nursing at the BA/BS level; it is also most true for some fields that require professional or graduate school (some health care professions, law, academia). It is somewhat less the case for general business, in that many go into general business after studying something else in college, or not going to college. However, college, choice of major, and selectivity of the college or major may be seen as signals by some employers.

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You don’t have to study business if you don’t want to (in fact there are a lot of good reasons not to study business as an undergrad but to get an MBA later if that’s what you decide to do), but IU is a great school all-around, for pretty much anything.

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Kids just need to be aware that the “signal” goes in both directions. Studying business may mean “I am passionate about forensic accounting, and so want as broad a business background as I can get before doing my accounting master’s and taking the CPA” or it might mean “I want my ticket punched so I can get a cushy 6 figure job that doesn’t involve blood, standing on my feet, or having to write papers”.

Not every business program is created equal. Which I reminded of every time I interview a kid with a BS in business who “is passionate about global business” but who speaks zero foreign languages, does not understand what the Euro is, and doesn’t understand why China’s shift to a market economy has had worldwide implications.

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Hmmm. IU is a great school for poli sci, international Relations and Languages - they are a language flagship school, Public Affairs (grad school #1 ahead of Harvard), Journalism, informatics, music and so much more.

My god, your views are so slanted.

Btw - great defined by whom? There are lots of great schools, some likely better than Harvard.

You don’t mean great. You mean higher in your perception tree based on what you’ve read or friends and family have told you.

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Listen OP, I am going to try and be as direct and polite as I can be here. You want to use a college name to squeeze into IB, private equity and such. You realize that you don’t have the chops to hang with the STEM kids from Jefferson and such and have cultivated an alternate persona that will for now help you with admissions.
Here is the catch, do you think the gunners at MIT, Harvey Mudd and CMU are going to go into college and all of a sudden decide they want to pursue organic farming?
How many top tier IB and MBB type jobs do you think are out there?
I think a reality check is needed here.

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The I bank I spent a large portion of my career with would standardize one case based question a year and all analyst and associate applicants would be asked it. Broadly responses would be characterized as suggesting a proficiency in areas ranging from quant, trading, sales, non risk taking, client facing or just simply lacking.

An example of one used that I can recall was “you are asked by the owner of a large downtown Chicago parking garage how to address a business challenge that they are facing. They are experiencing declining revenue and quickly approaching a point that the business isn’t viable. They are looking for any strategic, financial or technological solutions you can offer”.

The approach was then to say nothing and see what the candidates next response was. You deliberately leave out a lot of info.

Typically (and appropriately) you would be asked follow up questions ranging from the broad what is the competitive landscape, down to the detail of what is the breakdown of cost of carry or acquisition of individual spots. Some kids would start with asking about the neighborhood while others would ask if at exit an employ received payment or it was cashless. My point being the conversation could go in many directions.

By design they were free flowing interviews so that you could identify how a person problem solves and evolves their thoughts.

As an example of how these conversations would progress here is an example. Yes there is an employee who receives payment. Oh so can we save money by automating? Perhaps but what do you think the consequences of that decision might be.

Now you get into the evaluative stage 1- Pethaps I would have to fire someone 2- customers might miss human contact or feel less safe 3- perhaps we should advise trying to create the technology to make the human expendable 4- have we looked at what local competitors are doing well 5- can we buy local competitors and have more pricing power. Interviewer response to force an answer would be so what would you suggest at this point please.

The more thoughtful, creative supported by quantitative analysis the responses where would drive the interviewer to conclude a potential area most suitable while the efficacy of the solutions, insightfulness of the questions and soundness of the presentation of ideas would drive the hire/fit determination.

Sorry for the bit of stream of consciousness description but I often think there is a misperception that these interviews have a right wrong element versus the much more subjective nature of how they are utilized.

Ultimately those that are most successful are invited to a “super day” and interviewed sequentially by 5-8 people who all interview the same batch and rank them for hire. This is an age old process in my experience.

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I should have mentioned that past academic or personal experience didn’t necessarily lend itself to success in these interviews. Sometimes the seemingly introspective introvert would shine with their thoughtfulness while the Ivy educated jock would come off as arrogant.

We did tend to target elite, Ivy and LAC schools but had been expanding that list over the last decade. Highly ranked schools remain over represented but the internal competition at these schools is also extremely high. Think hundreds of applications for 2 dozen interview spots that leads to 4-5 hires. Compare this to a really well regarded state school where you get 50 applications for 6-8 interview spots that leads to 1-2 hires.

Meaning you can get to the same place from anywhere but your path is likely more traveled from a traditional target.

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I’m always amazed at how difficult and many stages of interviews my kids have had to go through. My eldest works at a large financial interview and he had to go through a couple of tests, etc before getting to the big interview that lasted almost all day. I know he had a couple of case interviews (in front of different teams) but I don’t understand what all that entailed. The one that blew me away was the creative one. He walked in a room and was asked point blank to come up with 10 new features he would design for an alarm clock. No prior preparation. What the heck?! He’s a math/Econ major by the way. I don’t remember exactly what he said, but I remember being impressed that they weren’t just cool tech things for kids, but also thought about the challenges of the elderly and handicapped.

For my employer we have one dinky interview where we just ask basic HR questions. And maybe a few even more basic competency ones.

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Back to the OP and his chances please.

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OP Please see my prior two posts as your questions or assumptions appear to have evolved beyond just “chance me”. My comments were intended to provide context based on first hand experience as to what it takes (majors, skills, attributes, etc) to get a job as you describe in finance and or business management and or whether or not a “name brand” as you suggest is required.

If anything further specific to a financial career feel free to ask otherwise good luck.

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kinda late to the thread but…
You do not suck at math. For NoVa, it may feel like it but you took calculus despite not having math as an easy-for-you subject (evidenced in the fact you took Algebra2H despite getting a B in Geometry, or taking AP Calc after Precalc Reg) which many adcoms will see as evidence of willingness to challenge yourself and intellectual strength. You’d be among the top applicants in terms of math background at most colleges in the country. In college, if you major in the Humanities, even if you’re not required to, DO take statistics.
That being said, that background is not sufficient for STEM at top colleges, indeed - but it does show you can do it if you attend a lesser-known college and put you mind to it, or that you’d be successful with the quantitative aspects of poli-sci (check out the SODA major at Penn State) or History.

Senior classes: you should replace AP Psych with either AP European History or the new AP African American History. Alternatively, in additition to DE US Govt, take a DE class involving history of a specific area, group, or period. Taking DE Intro to Philosophy would be another proof of rigor.
Save psychology for freshman year in college. If you want to major in history at a top university, you want a history class your senior year.

For History in particular, where you study is important: a good program will involve a lot of reading and class discussions, so peer quality is essential, first because quality of the seminar will depend on them and second because level of reading&writing (quantity, pure textbook v.primary sources, understanding v. analysis, type of paper expected…) is the #1 concern for that field. This can be found through excellent honors colleges at T100 universities, solid LACs, etc, and does NOT require T40s/Ivies/Little Ivies. Freshman-level non Honors classes at large universities or CCs won’t cut it though.
In addition, some colleges will have excellent career resources for Humanities majors and others… not so much. inquiring after admission and using these services as early as freshman year, building your resumes&experiences+professor connections is going to matter a lot. (Profs will be excellent everywhere).
Finally, you may want a collegiate or residential experience. For these reasons, I wouldn’t recommend NoVa CC as your sole “safety”.

Not to mention that if you’re honest with yourself, that isn’t what you’re truly seeing yourself doing; when your friends announce where they’re going and most are attending a 4-year college, won’t you feel odd realizing you should have applied to a few 4-year colleges that you could talk about rather than being stuck saying you’ve been denied/denied/denied/denied and end up at NoVa. It’s EXTREMELY difficult psychologically for students who expect a lot of themselves. First, there’s a matter of being shut out of the chatter; second, there’s the humiliation v. need to save face; third, it’s just… devastating. It’s easy to underestimate how devastating it feels to be rejected again and again and again from places you really wanted to attend (which is the likelihood for all applicants applying to colleges with sub 25% acceptance rates), which is why even top applicants hedge their bets.
You don’t have to attend your safeties if you truly feel that NoVaCC is a better choice but for your sake make sure you do have 2 4-year (honors) college safeties.

Look up banknotes specialists: where do they teach? Reach out to them and ask them a real question relevant to your interests + what kind of research they’re conducting, whether their university is supportive and how so, etc. (This could lead to opportunities and at the very least will be fulfilling for you. Note that many professors may not have the time to reply but if they’re passionate about the same thing as you are, it may help in convincing them to spare the time to “chat” with a HS student.)

Target places many of your peers don’t: Carleton, Macalester, Grinnell, Gettysburg, Dickinson, the Maine LACs perhaps, Davidson, Connecticut Coll, and Vassar for reaches. Pitzer and Occidental if you’re okay with CA.
If you want large universities, UWisconsin-Madison or UWashington (for instance) can be added but it’ll be hard to beat your instate options. Penn State, UConn, UVermont would all be targets to safeties for Liberal Arts (note that SODA is in CLA); at Penn State you could apply to Schreyer but even if you didn’t get in (it’s very selective, the 1st year class is 300 out of 8,000) you could sign up for Paterno Fellows.
At all the private colleges, start demonstrating interest now. Type “join the mailing list” + name of college in your search engine for each of the colleges listed in this thread. Have a college email that you check every day, click on the links you find interesting in each email they send. (This is tracked).
At UMich, target RC (Residential College) within LSA - but it’s another reach.
AU and/or GWU should be on your list.
Frankly though if I were you and I had such a stellar choice for history and poli sci as W&M in my backyard, I’d apply ED to have a decent shot.

Or… you could aim for History at Oxford or LSE, or Engineering at Herriot Watt etc, ie., target British universities where your GPA doesn’t matter, only your AP+SAT scores (plus, esp. for Oxford, a written and/or oral exam which students prepare by reading a good dozen books over the summer.) History at Oxford is no impediment to a career in the City.

Note that history majors are expected to be fluent in at least one of the languages spoken in the area they’re studying. An issue ofc is that you may not discover what that area is until junior year and gaining fluency is a multi-year (/study abroad) project.

If you really want Engineering there are programs where one can get into with your current math/science background but I’m guessing you wouldn’t be interested in attending these colleges. Electrical Engineering from any college is very much in-demand right now for instance. Pick the easiest-to-get into public university in VA that offers Electrical Engineering and you’re set.
BTW you could also apply to AU for CS. It’s not what they’re famous for but their program is good and with their “internship day” system you’d have a lot of experience. AU for CS would be a match/target.
You can follow a dual strategy: EE at instate public safety(with honors)+ AU CS, then History/PoliSci/similar everywhere else.

Some from JMU, GMU, UMW, CNU, VCU all with honors colleges should be on your list (even if you don’t intend to be going).
Build your list from the “bottom up” : find 2 4-year safeties you like (go visit 3 from those I listed above for instance, contact the Honors college ahead of time and ask whether you can meet with an official and an Honors student).
You could add 1-2 private midsize universities like Fordham (the selective IPE major may be of interest; it integrates quantitative skills and you’d likely compete against NMFs for it but is worth a shot) or Marist (Marist is another one that’s very reputable for CS due to direct partnership with IBM and where you’d have a shot).
Then add 5 or 6 targets (acceptance rate should be 30-40%) that share key (to you) characteristics with your reaches: it could be sports, strength of academic dept, internship opportunities, weather, proximity to a city, ease of switching out of your declared major (for publics, since there’s a lot of gatekeeping - LACs admit you to the college though there’s a consideration of what major you’re interested in; they assume you’ll try a bunch of courses before settling on the one you like best)…
Your reaches should have an acceptance rate in the 20-30% range. Anything else, sprinkle on top, sparingly.

Probably not what you want to hear, but in addition to your instate universities (and you’re incredibly lucky to have such a topnotch choice as W&M), focus on LACs. Being male is a definite advantage, being Asian may well be at several of them, and being high-income will help you at all need-aware universities. In short, your profile involves not just one lucky break but several and if you’re smart they can benefit you.

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Can I just say how amazing it is to read such detailed posts from very experienced people who take the time to help students find their way?

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I was going to post exactly that! :heart::heart:

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I’m at awe. Thank you so much!
My issue is, my parents (and this isn’t even a point of debate in my house) require me to live at home through college. I know this sounds absolutely comedic and horrifying to the average teenager, but my mom has told me not to go to VTech simply because they require freshmen to live on campus. This isn’t to save money or anything, but just for my mom’s mental peace and “for me to adjust to the real world” since “I don’t understand how difficult life can be.” Believe me I’ve tried to reason and explain that college is a once-in-a-lifetime chance to live independently, they absolutely don’t care (i.e 18 is too tender of an age to live away from parents, I myself lived with my parents until I got married, you have the next 60 years to live alone, etc.) The ONLY exception they provide to this rule is if I get into a T20 where I simply CANNOT sacrifice my acceptance for anything, so getting into a T20 is my only shot of having a normal college life (hell, it took hours of convincing for them to allow me to live independently at UMich, Notre Dame, WUSTL, Amherst, Williams, or goddamn Vanderbilt since “they didn’t know about these schools”). So if I tell them I’m heading off to Gettysburg Colleges or Sewanee’s honors program, they’ll have a nice laugh and then scream so that the neighborhood can hear. In a way, without it being my fault, its NVCC or bust.

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I have to say, I love your writing!

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Assuming this is true, I sympathize.

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If the real reason for “T20 or bust” is a parental mandate, why didn’t you just lead with this? Every time you post, you completely reframe the conversation.

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