Chances for a veteran to get into Columbia

[admissionsgeek]

<p>jay - </p>

<p>i agree that the program is probably lacking. but i will offer a few thoughts... </p>

<p>1) columbia is not the only option as you mentioned to get a collegiate education. coming to columbia and taking on the potential debt burden through gs should be (though sorrily is not) a well understood concept. i think this is something that can be fixed, and may have even been addressed if not for the economic strains. most state universities, most less selective schools will easily take veterans.</p>

<p>2) i am not sure with your obsession with highly selective schools as the answer for veterans. the way these schools are set-up inherently disadvantages older students (unless those that wish to be tokenized). the college, for example, does not allow students that have spent a year or more break in their education to matriculate. so your "why doesn't cc just allow veterans," would create an exception to the rule. only once cc is ready to accept all non-traditional students would this rule be broken. this is an example that i am sure can be found in other highly selective schools. further, if cc were to admit non-traditional students far fewer would attend than currently there is room for with something like gs. to some degree this would be a disservice to those that willingly desire columbia's education. but as i noted, this is not the only option. state universities and in-state tuition as well as greater age flexibility are far more suitable. and some of these universities are far better 'fits' for a student. if your argument is somehow to tear down the ivory tower and that the 'best' schools ought to accept veterans, then that is a politicized argument that is mostly rancor and not in the best interest of veterans. going to college (something fewer than 50% of the people in this country do) should be the goal, and your success is only measured by how hard you work - not where you go to school. if the thing is more broadly how do we open up opportunities for veterans, i agree - let's have that conversation. but there are a lot of issues to break apart than the ones we have brought up here.</p>

<p>as for veterans receiving undergraduate financial aid packages - well these packages themselves are dependent on family income and for people who live on their own or are no longer official dependents of their parents, it is harder to calculate this as compared to an 18 year old. yes it is unfair, and more than likely figuring out how to package non-traditional students should be the next frontier of financial aid - but i am not sure the population is large enough that people are worrying about it. it is a shame, but the truth - and also why schools are less than likely to be taking on a lot of non-traditional students</p>

<p>3) overall i think there is a continued need for non-traditional schools that provide a unique sensitivity to students who have not followed a unique path toward education. further and this is the most important thing at columbia gs to other schools - is that they provide advice and counseling that meets the demands of these different students. no matter how much economically advantageous it would be to go to UC-Berkeley, there are disadvantages of being 'just another student.' </p>

<p>the point being jayko is that it is what is best for each student. </p>

<p>to the OP, why are you so dead set on columbia? if you want business this program is not available. re: engineering, you can apply directly to columbia's engineering school if you want - they have no age restrictions. but i didn't get from your post why you want to go. without wanting to go somewhere, it is harder for us spectators to accurately 'chance you.'</p>

<p>overall i think that gs is a compelling option if you want to go to columbia and live in the city and believe the debt that will accumulate is worth it, you will be at a veteran friendly place in the sense that other veterans will be there. and to address what jay sort of talks about as some sort of discrimination to gsers - outside of financial aid discrepancy which is clearly stipulated by the school, unless you come to columbia and have an inferiority complex - few people if any will ask you what school you go to or care. you will be a columbia student.</p>

<p>it is your choice. good luck.</p>

[jaykoblives]

<p>
[quote]
"columbia is not the only option as you mentioned to get a collegiate education. coming to columbia and taking on the potential debt burden through gs should be (though sorrily is not) a well understood concept. i think this is something that can be fixed, and may have even been addressed if not for the economic strains. most state universities, most less selective schools will easily take veterans."

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</p>

<p>The problem would be easily fixed if veterans applied through CC.</p>

<p>
[quote]
i am not sure with your obsession with highly selective schools as the answer for veterans.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not sure why you would characterize my interest as an obsession unless you're trying to take a subtle dig at me. I also don't know why you'd generalize all veterans into the same lump category. Within the veteran population there are varying degrees of academic aptitude. Veterans who display exceptional academic promise should have the opportunity to attend exceptional schools. Period.</p>

<p>
[quote]
the way these schools are set-up inherently disadvantages older students (unless those that wish to be tokenized).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The Admissions process is the only thing that disadvantages veterans with promise.</p>

<p>
[quote]
the college, for example, does not allow students that have spent a year or more break in their education to matriculate. so your "why doesn't cc just allow veterans," would create an exception to the rule. only once cc is ready to accept all non-traditional students would this rule be broken. this is an example that i am sure can be found in other highly selective schools

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</p>

<p>This is complete and utter BS. These are private universities who can make exceptions if they want to and I contend that making exceptions for veterans, especially those who served in war time, is the right thing to do. And I'm not saying they should be required by law. My point is, if these institutions are touting their diverse student body, but not admitting veterans after they've proven they can have academic success, they're really not as diverse as they claim.</p>

<p>
[quote]
state universities and in-state tuition as well as greater age flexibility are far more suitable.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What an offensive quote. Who are you to tell me and all veterans what is suitable for us? You don't know me, you know know all veterans. You know nothing about my potential. Don't tell me what suits me and what doesn't. What an elitist comment.</p>

<p>
[quote]
if your argument is somehow to tear down the ivory tower and that the 'best' schools ought to accept veterans, then that is a politicized argument that is mostly rancor and not in the best interest of veterans.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My aim is to have more doors open to veterans with promising academic potential. Has little to do with politics but a lot to do with ethics in our society.</p>

<p>The last thing I'm going to say in regards to your post is that you either seriously misread the point of my posts, or you have a seriously skewed view of what the veteran's population in this country deserves. You seem to think that opening the doors to more veterans would create a massive influx of students or something. The truth is, even if more universities at the top level started programs to entice veterans, most would still matriculate into state schools or less prestigious universities. What I resent is the idea that a veteran shouldn't set his/her sights too high in academia. Top universities/colleges would benefit from the incite these veterans would bring to their campus.</p>

[sorghum]

<p>Might be humiliating to write the SAT test with a bunch of high school kids. Might be humiliating to go to a top academic college and sit among 19 year olds who are far better prepared and capable, intellectually, than you are.</p>

[jaykoblives]

<p>^
Why would you assume they are "far better prepared and capable, intellectually" than I am? Do I know you? Or are you revealing a prejudice?</p>

[admissionsgeek]

<p>dude, why are you so testy? </p>

<p>1) i was lumping veterans within the larger category of non-traditional or older than 18 yo students. i know that you think there is a difference, but in looking at candidates there often are not differentiations between veterans and others.</p>

<p>2) you do want an exception for veterans as you stated here. and you have to understand how this might adversely affect other populations. do you believe that a private university must admit non-traditional students into its fold? or just veterans?</p>

<p>3) i did not have a skewed view - what you've proven in this post is that you are someone who is very angry and i am sorry that i touched your nerves here. i know you are passionate, but the thing is in your passion there is a difficulty in reasoning or showcasing an alternative opinion with you. yes you are going to write back a negative response, but think about it first. if you want to have a debate/conversation - let's. don't cry bloody murder anytime someone might have trouble with your idea. </p>

<p>4) the entire discussion is that veterans with academic potential ought to have options. what i am saying is that is a longer conversation than you have offered - yes that is a dig at you. by complaining on some message board we are not going to radically alter the way schools have done admissions for decades, particularly if (as you even point) the group in question is not that large. what you are asking for affects - 1) admissions, 2) financial aid, 3) student affairs and student retention services. and i reiterate, i do not think it is right, i think it is what it is.</p>

<p>5) and frankly i am really tired of the argument that somehow reaching for the sky means applying to an ivy league school. reaching your potential means exactly that. and the ivy league in the undergraduate level is a rat-race that advantages those that have an abnormal amount of maturity or gamesmanship at age 18. it inherently disadvantages older students (veterans, professional athletes, millions of individuals) all whose potential is extraordinary. everyone has their own way of development which means that not everyone will follow this path above - but it does not mean somehow they are less intelligent and will have less of an impact on the world. if Ivy League Schools are willing to deny valedictorians of high schools, state champion athletes, people who otherwise were brilliant but were more of an A- student. admission to these schools is rough. and i have a problem with most people setting their sights on these schools as some measure of their potential when undergraduate education is a droplet in their foundation. that kid who didn't really pick up a book until 11th grade - he may be the next great writer - that young woman who decided to serve his country could be the next great engineer. i know this, and you know this. so what i am trying to figure out and perhaps i should have phrased this more as questions. how and why should veterans be exempted? or should schools only admit veterans who apply at 18 and let them defer for their entire enlistment? if you apply in your 20s how can someone appropriately compare you to someone who took 18 APs and already has 10 patents? and if a handful of students are admitted, is this enough of a critical mass to make an impact? is that sufficient?</p>

<p>i think this is a bigger problem with the non-traditional student, the late-blooming student, or the student who has to take care of their family instead of going to school. the current university system punishes them because it was developed in a time when only 18 yo would go off. it is an undeserving punishment, but as i said above - it is a national dialogue about universities and not one just about top colleges.</p>

<p>and so even those these students because they did not run the rat race at 18 and are disadvantaged (i say this as fact and not my opinion) by the process, it does not mean that they are cut off from showcasing their academic potential in graduate school, in life etc. there are some necessary changes to higher education that will better support non-traditional students (veterans included). but often taking on the top colleges - i am trying to understand motive - is not a solvent answer. so a last question: is promoting someone to attend an Ivy more symbolic than effective change? it is not as if a student who has ivy-like potential will not eventually shine in a national and global sense - but what is the motive in seeking their admission?</p>

[jaykoblives]

<p>
[quote]
1) i was lumping veterans within the larger category of non-traditional or older than 18 yo students. i know that you think there is a difference, but in looking at candidates there often are not differentiations between veterans and others.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In my opinion, most universities would benefit from admitting more students from the non-traditional applicant pool in general. However, within that applicant pool, I do feel that veterans should be given preference. </p>

<p>
[quote]
2) you do want an exception for veterans as you stated here. and you have to understand how this might adversely affect other populations. do you believe that a private university must admit non-traditional students into its fold? or just veterans?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think these institutions "must" do anything. Private universities have a right to admit or not admit anyone they choose. I think they should be encouraged to create a diverse student body. I'm not sure admitting a handful of veterans will negatively affect most top universities. </p>

<p>
[quote]
3) i did not have a skewed view - what you've proven in this post is that you are someone who is very angry and i am sorry that i touched your nerves here. i know you are passionate, but the thing is in your passion there is a difficulty in reasoning or showcasing an alternative opinion with you. yes you are going to write back a negative response, but think about it first. if you want to have a debate/conversation - let's. don't cry bloody murder anytime someone might have trouble with your idea.

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</p>

<p>The only part of your post that angered me is the way you used the word "suitable" in your previous post. I felt it was a judgment you were in no position to make. If I misinterpreted what you were trying to say, I apologize. I have no problem considering your point of view as long as it isn't presumptuous.</p>

<p>
[quote]
4) the entire discussion is that veterans with academic potential ought to have options. what i am saying is that is a longer conversation than you have offered - yes that is a dig at you. by complaining on some message board we are not going to radically alter the way schools have done admissions for decades, particularly if (as you even point) the group in question is not that large. what you are asking for affects - 1) admissions, 2) financial aid, 3) student affairs and student retention services. and i reiterate, i do not think it is right, i think it is what it is.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Obviously complaining on a message board isn't going to fix the issue, but it is an opportunity to exchange ideas, which we are doing, I think. I'm aware that what I'm asking would effect all the departments you mentioned, but I disagree that it would affect the process in a huge way. All it takes is a little consideration. I'm not saying veterans should automatically be accepted because they're veterans. I'm simply saying that military service should be weighted appropriately and that slightly different admissions criteria should be applied. </p>

<p>
[quote]
5) and frankly i am really tired of the argument that somehow reaching for the sky means applying to an ivy league school. reaching your potential means exactly that. and the ivy league in the undergraduate level is a rat-race that advantages those that have an abnormal amount of maturity or gamesmanship at age 18.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Or you're a legacy, or a marginally good athlete. As for reaching for the sky, it is undeniable that graduating from a top school increases your chances of being admitted to a top graduate studies program as well as opening more career opportunities. This is the practical reason why I would rather attend a university or college with a certain level of national prestige than a state school. </p>

<p>
[quote]
so what i am trying to figure out and perhaps i should have phrased this more as questions. how and why should veterans be exempted?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First of all, I don't feel veterans should be "exempted" from a thorough evaluation. A better question would be "What is it about military service that should make a person's application stand out?". Admissions already place heavy emphasis on ECs including community service. An admissions office should also consider how a student's unique experiences have shaped their frame of reference. Military service, unlike anything else, combines aspects of national service, community service, exposure to foreign cultures, different people and ethnic groups, and of course hard work. Then of course there's the fact that, in an all voluntary Army, those who choose military service (less than 1% of the population) stands in place of all those who didn't volunteer. They risked their lives in the defense of the nation that allows anyone to attend this prestigious universities. I believe society has an obligation to protect and honor those who volunteer to guard the gates of our nation and so does an admissions office.</p>

<p>
[quote]
and so even those these students because they did not run the rat race at 18 and are disadvantaged (i say this as fact and not my opinion) by the process, it does not mean that they are cut off from showcasing their academic potential in graduate school, in life etc

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You're right, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to fight so that veteran's have an opportunity to showcase themselves sooner rather than later.</p>

[es_four]

<p>jaykoblives,</p>

<p>I think GS would be an excellent fit for you. From your postings, I'd imagine it would be a substantially more appropriate place than any of the other aforementioned schools.</p>

[jaykoblives]

<p>
[quote]
jaykoblives,</p>

<p>I think GS would be an excellent fit for you. From your postings, I'd imagine it would be a substantially more appropriate place than any of the other aforementioned schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I appreciate the encouragements. Despite my criticism of the GS program, I do have a lot of respect for Columbia University as a whole and I think I'd be very happy attending classes there. As for being more appropriate, I can't say. I had a great visit to some of the other college I mentioned as well.</p>

[es_four]

<p>If I had the money, I wouldn't be leaving. I don't know the particulars of your GI Bill, but if the offers are somewhat comparable, I'd go to CU. Also, I've heard that one can [successfully] procure additional institutional funds from GS if you have a substantially better FA offer from another school. Just something to consider....</p>

[kplanders]

<p>"why are you so dead set on columbia?" </p>

<p>I am not dead set on columbia, i mentioned columbia because out of all the ivy league schools Columbia would work out better since i am from Long Island and will be able to commute there from home. The reason I am shooting as high as an ivy league is because I asked myself the question "Well, why not?". I believe with my life experience and the amount of college credit i have that i could quite possibly measure up to the kind of people that get accepted to ivy leagues. But one problem is that my situation is unique compared to the 99.9% of people that apply there, therefore it's very hard for me to tell where i stand among them. </p>

<p>As for all of the debt and financial aid issues people are bringing up, it seems there needs to be some education on the new Post 9/11 GI Bill (which wont be put into effect until August 2009)</p>

<p>GI</a> Bill 2008 - Frequently Asked Questions</p>

<p>For those who choose to read the information on that link they will learn that it is very possible to get Columbia paid for 100% IF they choose to participate in the yellow ribbon program. Not only that, but I will get a 2,800 dollar monthly living allowance for the school being in NYC......yes it's true. I will be pretty well off if i live with friends or family. So debt is not my concern right now (which is another reason I'm shooting for ivy league)</p>

<p>Also, coming from a veteran, I don't believe we should get special treatment when it comes to getting accepted to schools....it's either i'm good enough or not. Yes, i do believe being a veteran should look excellent on an application, but i don't think the school should feel obligated to accept me because "it's the right thing to do."</p>

<p>Do i think i'm good enough for ivy league? The answer is hell yes i do. I believe with my experience, work ethic, maturity, and yes even intelligence, that i will fit right in at an ivy league. </p>

<p>But of course, it doesn't matter what i think, it's what the person reading my application thinks.</p>

[es_four]

<p>Commuting from Long Island? Yikes! </p>

<p>Best of luck to you!</p>

[kplanders]

<p>It's not bad from where I live trust me, half the people I know commute to the city, including my brother and father</p>

[benjaminetanyaho]

<p>I leave for Vermont for the weekend and return to a great discussion.</p>

<p>kplanders, </p>

<p>The likelihood of GS officially participating in the Yellow Ribbon program is very low. According to GS admin staff and MilVets' meetings, GS will participate in the program, but I will not hold my breath because participation in the Yellow Ribbon program requires a scholarship specifically for veterans. Columbia won't allow ROTC onto campus and you think they will create a scholarship for veterans. I think actions speak louder than words. As for the monthly stipend, $2800 a month is a hefty amount, but remember you won't receive it for twelve months out of the year, actually eight months and commuting from LI is not ideal. The whole reason to attend CU is for networking and immersing yourself completely into the campus lifestyle so ideally you will want to live in or around campus. The total yearly cost for GS is 54k so you do the math. Hopefully, aid within GS will increase significantly, but I doubt it will happen in 2009 or the foreseeable future. </p>

<p>Jay,</p>

<p>Just off the top of my head, there is a Marine from a cc and he transferred into Stanford recently. There is an Air Force guy from a cc and he transferred into Cornell AEM recently. There is an Air Force girl from a cc and she transferred into Georgetown's traditional program recently. A friend and seven year veteran is attending UNC. You, my friend, are shooting for one of the top LAC's in the country. Granted, your admission may coincide with a new admissions policy for veterans, but the last time I checked, you are being considered because of your performance in cc, SAT, and service for your country. You did not find a "backdoor" or another method to stand in a separate admissions "line".</p>

<p>Should universities value applicants based solely on service for their country? No, but it is a desirable trait and reflects positively on the applicant. I firmly believe veterans should play by the rules like every applicant and have an established academic record if they want to receive admission into a prestigious university. I think that the top universities do not factor a veteran's high school grades when the veteran has clearly established himself/herself at a cc or university and taken the ACT and/or SAT.</p>

[jaykoblives]

<p>^benj</p>

<p>I agree with just about everything you said except the SAT/ACT requirement. Now, I took them for the GS requirement and I received a 700/700/700. I don't think these results are going to hurt me in the GS admission's process so I don't want you to think I'm crying because the tests are hurting MY chances. While the tests might be necessary to sort through thousands of high school applicants (I guess), I really do not think the test accurately measures the likelihood of success in college, and, especially in the case of veterans, I don't think it's appropriate if they've managed to distinguish themselves at the college level.</p>

<p>Amherst College did not ask for my SAT scores, so I didn't send them. They share my opinion that, in a non traditional student's case, it's not as important. Amherst College has a program that reaches out to outstanding cc students and they admit a handful of them as transfers every year. When I had my meeting with one of the assistant deans of admissions, I asked him how those students compared to the more traditional students in terms of performance. He told me that, although the sample size is too small to say much, the students who transferred from a cc (the ones without an SAT requirement) actually maintain a higher GPA on average. </p>

<p>But man, I really don't want to turn this thread into an SAT thread (there's so many of them already and I know I'm fighting a losing battle).</p>

[Cowboy37fox20]

<p>Combat Veterans should be able to go to any school in this country they want at NO cost.</p>

[admissionsgeek]

<p>hi welcome to the conversation. i am not sure the purpose of your post three months later.</p>

<p>second, if you haven’t heard, columbia is part of the yellow-ribbon program.</p>

<p>third, your statement is incredibly broad. are you trying to instigate a fight? are you saying that combat veterans should be able to go to any school at no cost even if said combat veterans are not qualified or a poor match for that specific school?</p>

[Epaminondas]

<p>where did you eventually decide to attend, Kaplanders?</p>

[college_nole]

<p>Just to let everyone know, according to the VA, GS has officially adopted the Yellow Ribbon Program.</p>

<p>Visit the link: [NY</a> State Yellow Ribbon Program Information - (U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs)](<a href=“http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/CH33/YRP/states/ny.htm]NY”>http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/CH33/YRP/states/ny.htm).</p>

[kplanders]

<p>Epaminondas,</p>

<p>I am pretty set on Columbia GS as of now, I already received a tour from the President of the Veterans Club (MilVets) there. The only thing that would stop me from applying there is if I decide to major in engineering - a field that GS does not offer. However, if I decide to take a year of classes at a Community College when I go home and get 2 full time semesters under my belt, I think I may have a shot at Columbia College or SEAS as long as I maintain my 4.0</p>