Chances for an international with unfortunate SATs?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Smith College
1

<p>Hello all, </p>

<p>I'm a Canadian international applicant who's pretty solidly in love with everything about Smith, but I think my chances are shaky to non-existent at best. Eventually, I will apply RD (I would apply ED if finances weren't such a major consideration), but given my academic record and SAT scores I'm not sure if this is a realistic possibility. The bulk of my application is structured around my creative writing portfolio and the awards I've won in that field. Academic options at my small, rural school are pretty picked over (budget cuts have resulted in the axe for quite a few advanced courses and electives), but my recommendations and essay will be strong. </p>

<p>School type: public, rural, non-competitive
GPA:...at or around a 3.75, I think.
Rank: Top tenth
Size of grad class: Approx. 70 students
Classes:
English 12 (no AP, or I would have taken it)
Academic Math 12
Biology 12 (equivalent to upper-level biology)
Extended Core French 12 (a little bit more "challenging" than Core French)
Independent Study in Creative Writing (an advanced course I'm designing with an advisor) </p>

<p>SATs (the unfortunate part):
780 CR/ 690 W/ 440 M (yeah, I know...) </p>

<p>I have never tested well. The 690 in writing, though, is apparently (I just got the score report yesterday) due in part to my essay not scanning correctly. There are weird, dark black blotches all over the essay, many of which obscure my punctuation. Grr. </p>

<p>The 440 in math, however, is entirely accurate and waaay too low for Smith. </p>

<p>ECs:
Co-Editor of student literary publication
Amnesty International
Youth Health Centre (I helped launch a confidential, drop-in health clinic for youth in the basement of my school...mainly sexual & mental health-type stuff.)
Gay-Straight Alliance
Improv Club
Yearbook
Former co-judge of an international literary competition
Respect for Diversity (it's an anti-racism/anti-bullying thing) </p>

<p>Awards, etc.:
First place in a poetry competition judged by the writing faculty of ____<strong><em>University (U.S.)
First place in a poetry contest in the U.K.
Finalist in another poetry contest in the U.K.
Finalist in a poetry competition sponsored by _</em></strong>_College (U.S.)
Several school awards for writing </p>

<p>I've also been nationally published in the U.S., both in print and online. </p>

<p>So...how should I tackle this? :) </p>

<p>Thank you for taking the time to read my somewhat long-winded post. </p>

<p>Any feedback is greatly appreciated!</p>

2

<p>Honestly, it’s hard to know. A lot of us are experienced with Smith admissions and how they work, but none of us are admissions counselors and none of us can tell you for sure (channelling MeredithBelle, another poster here). </p>

<p>What I can do is sort of break down what I see are your strengths and weaknesses here. </p>

<p>Your overall scores really aren’t bad, except in math. Your math score is super, super low. And that’s going to lead them to look closely at your math preparation and ask if you’ve really taken the most rigorous math courses available, and look closely at how well you did in those classes. Actually, they’ll look at your transcript first, and then look at your SAT scores, and judge your scores in light of what they see on your transcript. For example, if you get mostly A’s in your math courses they might think, okay, she’s not a great test-taker, maybe she had a bad day, but she’s obviously able to do the work. Or vice versa, she has not so good grades, but her SAT scores are really high so she must have some ability that’s not coming through here. If your grades aren’t great and your score is so low, that’s not going to work in your favor. </p>

<p>Also, the fact that you’re an international student seeking aid already puts you in a tighter spot than most. There’s not a lot of aid available for international students to start off with, and Smith is not need-blind when it comes to admissions. </p>

<p>HOWEVER (now that you’re sufficiently depressed) your writing skills are obviously strongl (though they may wonder how a nationally published writer only scored a 640 in writing, to be honest with you) and the fact that you’ve started a Youth Health Centre is really interesting, shows that you’re a go-getter, a leader, a person with talent that could be considerable if properly nurtured. The Creative Writing course that you’re working on with a teacher sounds similar to the special studies courses you can do at Smith, so that gives some inkling that you’re up to college level work. </p>

<p>So it’s partially negative, but you also have positives working in your favor. All is definitely not lost, so don’t let this stumbling block upset your or convince you not to apply altogether. The only thing you can really do is try, put yourself out there, and then let the decisions fall where they may. </p>

<p>The good news is that Smith really does look at the applicant as a whole, and I think in general prospectives freak out a little too much over SATs (though I know that for internationals they matter more). One factor is not going to kill your whole application. You should write an amazing essay, to show them that even with a 640 writing score you’re a great writer. </p>

<p>And if possible, I would strongly, strongly recommend taking SAT II’s in math and Writing and trying really hard to score better. Sometimes the SAT IIs are easier because the math level is more equivalent to what a high school senior is actually studying so you’ll be more familiar with the material. I found when I took my SATs I stumbled over stupid things I had learned in 10th grade and then forgotten, but the SAT II’s were things I had learned the month before. Really try to adust your attitude about it, don’t go in thinking you’re crap at math and test taking cause that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, try to stay positive and stay focused.</p>

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<p>Whoops! Just saw that your writing score was a 690, not a 640. Well done you! Would still focus on writing an awesome essay though, and it is probably still a good idea to try an SAT II. if they don’t offer the writing one anymore, then do one of the English ones.</p>

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<p>Wow…thanks for getting back to me so quickly!
I very much appreciate your advice, SaP. Concerning SAT IIs: I’m already scheduled to take them in French and Literature in December, which I think should help somewhat because those are two areas in which I’ve always done pretty well. I generally get around an A- in math classes, although it may be somewhat lower this year because 30% of all senior math grades in my province are made up by a provincial exam (yet more strictly timed standardized testing. Whee!). I’m trying to pull up my socks as much as possible before then. </p>

<p>Also, I forgot to add that I spent half of freshman year and all of sophomore on scholarship at a private school in MA. (I left for some fairly legitimate personal reasons that I plan to explain in the “school switch” section of the Common App). So there IS a more substantial record of my ability to handle a rigorous courseload…</p>

<p>I won’t be deterred from applying by my SAT score, though. I care about Smith way too much to be concerned by the amount of hard work involved in the process.</p>

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<p>S&P, nice comments, but there’s one piece of information missing: that Smith is SAT-optional. Unless I’m wrong, applicants have a choice about submitting SAT scores. Obviously, excellent scores are something to tout and should be included in applying. Inhabited_world, after you take your SAT IIs, you will have to decide how to present yourself. I believe that if you want to submit SAT IIs, your SAT Is are automatically sent as well. You should check on this to make sure about this policy. Also, if math tests are not your forte, then perhaps your guidance counselor can also point out this fact, given that you’ve gotten As in math in class; she can also mention your province’s math-testing requirements. </p>

<p>Your accomplishments in poetry are very cool. </p>

<p>I hope your determination will work in your favor. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Smith is not test-optional for international applicants.</p>

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<p>Anechkakith, thank you for the clarification.</p>

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<p>Okay, think seriously about taking an SAT II in Math. There are two levels, a Math I and a Math II. If you took even Math I and scored just a little bit higher (mid to high 500s, breaking 600 would be ideal) it could go a long way towards helping your case. Again, sometimes those tests are easier because it will be cover more things you’re studying in 12th grade as opposed to things you studied in 10th. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>I don’t want to sound overly-optimistic, but D (international, non-english speaking country) got in, with merit aid with more or less the same Math scores, no HS Math since 10th grade and no Science SATIIs. On the other hand, the rest of her application was very strong, particularly languages (Latin, Greek, German), and she had stellar recommendations.</p>

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<p>SaP, you’re completely right about the SAT II in Math. For most people, this would be the best way to prove math ability to an admissions committee after the 440. For many people, as well, breaking a 600 might even be a likely possibility. I think I probably err on the side of doubt. </p>

<p>Math has always presented a great difficulty for me due to a mysterious inability to concentrate the way I normally would in a science or humanities course. I am able to make grades in the B+/A- range in math classes, but this is largely because my teachers are very accommodating of the longer time frames I sometimes need to finish quizzes, complete assignments, etc. I CAN do the work…it just takes me quite a bit more time than some other people seem to need. Currently, my family and I are looking into the possibility of testing for ADD/ADHD (both my father and my high-achieving sister were recently diagnosed, and they and I share many of the same learning tendencies). I said the 440 was accurate, and I meant it: this is an accurate portrait of my ability to do math under timed and tightly controlled circumstances. So I don’t think taking another standardized math test will do much to help my application, though I very much appreciate the (generally correct) advice. </p>

<p>Wow, Lost in trans.–I’m very impressed by your D.'s capabilities in four (five?) languages.
I definitely don’t have anything quite like THAT working in my favour, but I know my recommendations will be very strong. </p>

<p>I guess all I can do at this point is try…</p>

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<p>first, can you ask the College Board to have your essay regraded due to the blotches? There must be some sort of appeal process.</p>

<p>It seems like the other advice you’ve gotten here is very good. The only thing I’d add is you might want to consider taking the ACT…there, math is only 1/4 of your score, so maybe it would go better for you.</p>

<p>good luck!</p>

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<p>Sorry for jumping in so late…I’m surprised my standard answer “OMG chance me!” has become so “iconic” already haha. Nonetheless I’m gonna say it: none of us are admissions comm folks so it’s not like we have a say. But you seem to be a good student if it makes you feel better. I really hate to sound snarky, it’s just that it doesn’t really matter what we think, because we don’t have a say in the decision.</p>

<p>Though I will say you shouldn’t be so anxious about your SAT scores- 2/3 of them are more than acceptable and even though Smith hasn’t made scores optional for international applicants…admin has spoken out time and time again questioning how much they matter overall. Not to mention mine personally were nothing to write home about and I got accepted. So yeah, I actually don’t think Smith will care just your math score is less-than-steller. What they will care about, though, is how challenging your courses have been all 4 years of high school vs. your senior year alone as well as your grades GPA. And if your GPA isn’t weighted, it’s a good number.</p>

<p>Your awards show your talent for writing which is very very favorable & I hope you’re looking at our English dept. because it’s well-supported though at the same time, there are slightly less academic opportunities apparently for creative writing specifically I’ve heard. But it’s not my major, so don’t trust me 100%.</p>

<p>Lastly, you need to show specific instances of leadership in extracirricular activities since that’s what shows your character & capabilties vs. simply attending meetings regularly. Admissions will have no idea what your level of involvement is in anything if you just throw activities down without any explantion of what they entailed/your role is.</p>

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<p>I don’t now about your time frame with testing but SAT does give extra time to people who submit learning disability proof. Smith will also give you support if you are accepted and have a diagnosis of a learning disability</p>

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<p>Thank you very much to everyone for responding. I KNOW no one can tell me whether or not I’ll get in, but the advice is extremely helpful (coming as it does from people who’ve “been there”).
@ stacy: I can’t quite tell. The College Board site says "If you choose to have your essay score verified, we determine whether there was an error made in the scanning or processing of the essay scores assigned by essay readers. In this circumstance, your adjusted score is automatically reported and your fee is refunded.</p>

<p>IMPORTANT: The verification of essay scores does not include re-reading the essay or an appeal of the essay score."</p>

<p>It WAS clearly a scanning issue…but how can they verify this if they never re-read the essay to judge how it scanned? I’m not super-concerned about it, though, since Smith will receive a print-out of the oddly scanned SAT essay in my official score report (and there’s probably enough in my app to demonstrate my writing ability). I’ve looked into the ACT (the same thought about the math percentage also struck me), but the closest test centre is fairly far from where I live and would cost a semi-substantial amount of money for transport, a place to stay, etc. So I guess I’ll have to stick with my scores, for better or for worse.:slight_smile: </p>

<p>@ MeredithBelle: Yeah, I’m looking at the phenomenal English dept. (or possibly Comparative Lit). I definitely didn’t mean to make this seem like an “OMG chance me (<em>hyperventilates softly in background</em>)” thread, though, so I’m sorry if I came across that way. It’s just that many of the counselors and teachers at my current school don’t have a lot of experience with U.S. admissions. My friends and former teachers in the U.S. have been valuable resources, but I still feel like I’ve still got large gaps in my knowledge of how the system works. (For example, I didn’t find out how GPAs are calculated until this year.) To me, everything seems exceedingly useful. </p>

<p>@ overwhelmedma: I haven’t yet been officially tested, but plan on submitting documentation to colleges if the tests do turn out to be positive. All I know right now is that there’s a possibility I am ADHD.</p>

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<p>Yeah, I get what you’re saying. Still, it looks like we both agree that anyone giving an answer to “can I get in?” is in no way Offically Authorized to do so. I’m actually taking a Comp Lit class right now with Ann Jones who is FAB & the comp lit classes just seem great in general. I honestly think I could have been swayed by her class if I wasn’t so set on my major & minor from the start.</p>

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<p>Do the SAT score reports still break down the writing multiple choice and the essay? If so, what was your writing score versus your essay? As for the “scanning error,” you would have to find out if the scorers get the same scan that you did. You might want to talk to someone at the CB to see what can be done if they don’t re-read essays. I’m afraid that they would simply re-score the multiple choice part.</p>

<p>That said, plenty of Smithies arrive with lop-sided abilities and scores. Smith isn’t going to turn away the next Sylvia Plath or Gloria Steinem just because she is lousy at math. When they look at your application, they will weigh your strengths and weaknesses and then determine whether you would be a good addition to the next class of Smithies. </p>

<p>Just so you know: Smith is not a great place to study creative writing, although a writer can certainly take enough courses to satisfy her creative side. Without a program, Smith doesn’t have many top profs teaching courses, although it has had some good writers come in as visiting professors. My D almost discounted Smith because she wanted to minor in creative writing, but, fortunately for her, she eventually decided she didn’t need a formal program to write. She is now a science major who has taken several creative writing courses, all of them good but none of them consistent within genre. You would have to employ the Five College Consortium to specialize in, say, poetry. UMass/Amherst has a good graduate program in creative writing, and that trickles down to the undergraduate level.</p>

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<p>“I don’t want to sound overly-optimistic, but D (international, non-english speaking country) got in, with merit aid with more or less the same Math scores.”</p>

<p>Holistic admissions - - wonderful.
Lopsided scores - - no problem</p>

<p>But MERIT $$ with a math score of 440 - - that’s pretty bizzare. (And I wonder how the college avoided putting that in the CDS).</p>

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<p>@MWFN: I had a 9/12 on the essay score, which is by no means terrible…one of them was a 6 and one was a 3, though, which leads me to believe that the scorers received different versions of my essay. The potential re-scoring of the multiple choice section is also my concern, since I’m pretty sure there wasn’t an error there. </p>

<p>I’m not really looking to major or minor in creative writing during college. Like your D, I plan to get a solid background in several diverse areas (wherever I end up, though I hope it’s Smith). I might consider doing an MFA or something after my first degree. One of the things I really like about Smith is that writing seems more integrated into the general liberal arts atmosphere (with the Poetry Center, etc.) than it sometimes can be at schools with creative writing programs.
Thanks for the tip about UMass…I’ll definitely look into it if I get in/can afford to attend.</p>

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<p>If one is a 6 and one was a 3, your essay should automatically be sent to a third grader, but I don’t know what happens then. They must have had a reason for letting such a discrepancy stand: however, it does not suggest that the graders received different versions of your essay. It probably means that your essay fell outside the standard rubric and therefore was difficult to grade. Where the 6 person may have seen creativity, the 3 person may have seen lack of focus. (This is obviously just an example, not a real evaluation of your essay since I don’t know what you wrote.) That said, test prep services often say that graders are influenced by neatness and length, even though that’s not supposed to be part of the score. </p>

<p>If they won’t re-read the essay, then you won’t be able to just the score adjusted.</p>

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<p>nyc, they probably wanted her… I knew nothing about US colleges at that point (not having discovered CC!!!). One of my close relatives who teaches at a LAC (but obviously isn’t on CC…) told me she’d be a shoo-in for the Ivies. Result: 3 applications, 2 you-must-be jokings and one merit aid, which as MWFN will confirm, didn’t even exist at that time for international students.
Inhabited_world, sorry for the digression and good luck with your applications.</p>