chances for progeny

Parents Forum
1

<p>Yes, this is xposted in "Chances"...</p>

<p>Been lurking for awhile, now I jump in... Sorry so long…</p>

<p>He's finishing jr. year. Probably will pursue comp. sci. as a major but also interested in history, econ, etc. (see ECs). Don't want to limit him. We've visited schools, gone to info sessions (colleges sending reps locally); he's receptive, open-minded, even enthusiastic about what he’s seen, but not able to narrow it down, hasn’t been “smitten” yet. Both research universities & LACs hold appeal for him. I kinda wish he’d be able to have more focus starting now because it’s getting close. Lately I’ve been doing much more of the research than him. Also wish he’d work on a “hook”, essays, something to move himself forward in the process, but he’s been busy... besides schoolwork & regular stuff, studying for SAT I (took in May), then a few AP’s, then SAT II’s last week; now studying for finals. He’s a damn fine student but does need to work hard to get there…</p>

<p>Before I give stats, a few issues/concerns/gen’l questions:</p>

<p>(1) He’s known to many as a math/computer whiz, and but his scores are higher toward verbal… Sat I’s reflect same on PSAT’s & practice tests. Should he think of re-taking SAT I to up the math? (collegeboard gives stats… more people who re-take w/ his math score go down rather than up 2nd time… I think 56% vs. 32% or something like that). Is it safe to assume that colleges will take the highest of each of the 3 sections if one multi-takes? Because very likely he can go down in CR & Wr.</p>

<p>(2) Will applying EA to say, MIT, really increase his chances? Does EA/ED really screw w/ fin. aid for families of modest means?</p>

<p>(3) Should we not consider a tech/sci. school if he moves away from comp. sci?</p>

<p>(4) Which Ivies are good at comp. sci?</p>

<p>(5) Anyone know the diff. at Cornell b/t being a comp. sci. major in College of Arts & Sci. vs. College on Engineering? As far as ease of getting in, ease of work there, other reqs?</p>

<p>(6) Someone pls. explain Nat’l Merit commended/semi-fin/finalist. Very confused.</p>

<p>(7) What’s “worse” for admission… white male, Asian male, white female, Asian female… w/ similar stats?</p>

<p>OK, stats:</p>

<p>White male, competitive public suburban HS, taking toughest course load (honors/AP)… mostly A’s, few B’s, maybe 1 C. Do not know rank (school doesn’t do that) or GPA (school never offered that… I guess have to ask GC). Took AP Econ (both micro & macro I think), IB Econ SL & AP Comp. Sci this yr. Will take AP BC Calc, AP Eng, AP Govt, AP Bio, AP Span next yr, if sched. allows. </p>

<p>SAT I: CR800, Math740, Wr780 (10 essay).
SAT II: Chem800, waiting on Math2c & Spanish… he said they were easy.
He’ll be Nat’l Merit something… he rec’d the first letter.
Took the AMC a couple years; I think he did pretty good – gotta check about that too I guess.</p>

<p>EC’s … to preface… he’s interested in lots of things, has pursued things he has a true interest in, never to make his college aps look good; he’s got a lot of integrity that way…</p>

<p>Debate team all years (has only done LD), was LD chair this year, will be co-capt of team next yr. Qualified for states this year (as alternate).
Mock Trial, atty, 10th & 11th, will continue in 12th. Hasn’t qualified to advance.
Stock club all years, will be treasurer next yr.
Academic Decathlon A team… did real well, won Econ (& I think Math) gold medals at states… will do again sr. yr.
Peripheral involvement in Sci. Olympiad (time just doesn’t allow for it all).
Boy Scout – Life rank, will be lucky to get Eagle in time. SPL. Did Philmont summer ’04.
Participates in weekly computer volunteer group, working on software/hardware probs/upgrades to benefit non-profits, community service groups, after-school pgms in underserved area… for 2+ years now.
A little campaign work ’04.
Prestigious Gov. Schl. (info tech.) this summer.
No sports, no music.</p>

<p>Legacy at lower Ivy.</p>

<p>What am I leaving out?</p>

<p>Chances? Suggestions about schools to apply?</p>

<p>Considering... MIT, Caltech, Ivies, Williams, Amherst, CMU; no clue about safeties… advice?</p>

2

<p>Regarding your question #5 (Cornell): </p>

<p>An Arts & Sciences student must fulfill distribution & other requirements of the College of Arts & Sciences. An engineering student must fulfill the requirements of the College of Engineering. A student whose interests outside of his/her major are focused on the varied aspects of the liberal arts would be best served in the College of Arts & Sciences. A student whose interests outside of his major are various aspects of engineering would be happiest in the engineering college. If about 2/3 of one's course of studies consist of coursework outside of one's major then this choice of college can be very significant.</p>

<p>This is very old info, but it used to be that the College of Engineering was easier to get into on a percent accepted basis than the College of Arts & Sciences. That doesn't necessarily mean that the same kid could definitely get into engineering before Arts & Sciences though; the applicant pools are somewhat different as well. The SAT scores of the entering classes at each of these two colleges were about the same total on average, but the breakdown in the engineering school was skewed towards math.</p>

<p>AS for ease of work, you should expect it be very tough, at either college. Liberal arts type courses do not have tons of math-oriented problem sets, but they do have tons of reading and lots of term papers. Whether this type of work is easier for your son partly depends on him.</p>

<p>When I went there they didn't even have undergraduate comp sci majors at either college. They just had a graduate program, in the college of engineering I believe,which was very highly regarded.</p>

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<p>Thanks monydad. I was there too, in the 70's, don't even remember if there was a comp sci major then, but if there was, prob'ly was in Engr. I was an Aggie.</p>

<p>Trouble is, he likes to be a contrarian. The stuff you speak of, fulfilling the College's regs, I've talked to him about, suggesting A&S might be better for him than Engr. based on his other interests, but he'll argue w/ me for the sake of it.</p>

<p>As far as the extensive reading, term papers, etc... yes important points, something he needs to think about. Also, I think there's a foreign language req in A&S, not in Engr.</p>

4

<p>Just a few observations, answering your questions in turn.</p>

<p>1) on the SAT: SAT I: CR800, Math740, Wr780 (10 essay)</p>

<p>Don't bother retaking -- those are good scores and usually the curve on the math is so high that the 740 could have been a matter of only a few questions. Colleges know that from a statistical standpoint, every score is +/- 30 points anyway. What is more important at this point is the score on the Math IIC. </p>

<p>2) EA won't affect financial aid, because its not binding. ED increases chances everywhere it is offered, but it is not a good idea on the financial aid front. If you think you will be eligible for need based aid, don't go that route unless your son has a very clear first choice & his heart is set on it. But do run your numbers on the calculators at finaid.org -- you need to know ahead of time what your status is likely to be. If your EFC is high, you are going to want to consider schools that give good merit aid. </p>

<p>3) If he's leaning toward history, econ, etc. - then he's better off going for a college where he can change majors or double major with a tech/nontech major. </p>

<p>4 &5 ) I don't have a clue. ;) </p>

<p>6) If your son scored above 200 on the PSAT, in late August or September your son will get a letter telling him whether he is a semifinalist or commended. The cutoff for semifinalist varies in each state - generally around 214-219 points. Semifinalists find out their status first - it comes through the school and they get a form to fill out plus a very short essay to write that needs to go back to National Merit. 90% of semifinalists make finalist - the ones who don't have other issues (poor grades, poor SAT score, etc.). So basically, NM Semi + reasonably good school record = finalist. Finalists learn their status around February of their senior year. </p>

<p>7) If you were planning a sex change operation for your son, its too late. Nothing is "worse" per se -- neither Asians nor whites are beneficiaries of AA at most schools. Gender will help at colleges where there is a large gender imbalance - 65%+ of one sex or ther other. It helps to be whatever sex is in the minority at that school. A male who is strong in math but also is strong on verbal/writing will be very much in demand at LACs that are heavily female. </p>

<p>You didn't ask - but legacy does count for something - with your son's stats, assuming a strong GPA, it probably would get him in if he also applies early to the "lower" Ivy in question. It isn't enough for a so-so student, but your son's stats soun strong. GPA is really important though, and that's the one piece of the puzzle you didn't supply.</p>

<p>Now, advice from one whose been there: With your son's scores, stats, and broad range of interests - RELAX. He is going to get into a lot of colleges - as long has he has some in the match/safety range as well as Ivy level he will end up with good choices. So you don't have to push him to research too much. He's in a very good position and it sounds like he is flexible about what he wants. If you do want to research schools - start looking at schools that are good matches for him - below the level of Ivies. I think its best to expend the most effort in checking out the schools where a kid is most likely to be admitted -- the Ivies are iffy for anyone. So kids who get their hearts set on Ivies are often disappointed in the spring; kids who are focused on match & safety schools usually end up very happy, and sometimes have a pleasant surprise from their reach schools as well.</p>

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<p>Cuz, Welcome. Your son has a lot going for him. He has a reasonable chance at all of the colleges on his list, but as I think you understand, there’s no guarantee and he needs a balance of less selectives and sure things. The elites are easy to identify and easy to love. You (and your son!) should plan to devote a lot of time and energy on finding and learning to love his safeties. They are out there, but they’re not so easy. </p>

<p>Also, if your family requires financial aid, you’ll need to develop a financial aid safety list as well. Same situation, doable, but not easy. After you’ve calculated your estimated need based aid, you’ll know whether you can continue to pursue ivies and colleges that don’t offer merit aid.</p>

<p>Applying EA is a good option as it gives the student a boost (arguable, depending on the college) but doesn’t lock him/her into an acceptance. So the family can still compare the RD round offers. ED IS a risk for families that require substantial financial aid. Many kids do quite well with their ED packages; however, since you can’t compare RD offers, there’s still an element of risk. </p>

<p>Usually kids start getting more involved when their peers start talking about where they’re applying. Hopefully, your son’s high school will have a college counseling program that will help him focus and get moving on the application process. If not, welcome to the prodding, pushing, cajoling, nagging parent club. Many of us have rowed that boat. :)</p>

<p>These super selective colleges require a well thought out application process. The way that a student is presented in essays, recommendations, interviews, resumes etc is very important. Summer’s a good time to work on those essays and to visit schools. Definitely encourage him to get his Eagle before the applications go out at the end of the year. I wouldn’t bother with taking the SATI or II again. His scores are fine. CR800 is a real plus for a math whiz! </p>

<p>I’d spend the summer working on a knockout application that really shows who he is and what he has done. His essays and recommendations should reflect and amplify his personality and ECs. I like the idea of organizing the application into separate packages, each with a resume that lists accomplishments, awards, a progression of achievements, personal statements and/or short essays. He could do one for debate and one for his computer involvement. Some people think this is overkill; I see it as focus. </p>

<p>Anyway, don’t worry too much. This sounds like a highly verbal, persuasive kid. With all that debate experience he should know how to get his point across! </p>

<p>Williams where my son is a rising Junior is an excellent choice for a student who is strong in both math/science and social studies/humanities. Many kids double major in disparate combinations or change their minds half way through. I wouldn’t think of it as a destination for computer science, which actually could be a good thing since there wouldn’t be so much competition. At small, remote schools like Williams fit is everything. Most kids either love it or hate it when they visit. There are probably more Eagle Scouts per square inch at Williams than any other college. I think it’s the combination of character and outdoorsy pursuits. </p>

<p>For less selectives that are in the same “feel” as Williams and Amherst, I’d take a look at Hamilton, Colgate, Kenyon, Grinnell, Middlebury, Bowdoin.</p>

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<p>For question #6 (National Merit):</p>

<p>This is indeed a confusing topic, because the information is hard to find. I am going by memory for when my #1 went through this two years ago.
I'm sure someone will correct me if this is wrong.</p>

<p>The top 5% or so of PSAT scorers in each state get recognized. The top 1.5% or so get semi-finalist, the lower scorers get commended.</p>

<p>After semi-finalist they get some information about you. I think they look at your next SAT scores, to make sure your PSAT wasn't a fluke. And your school has to give them some information. I think 90% of the semi-finalists get elevated to finalist. At that point, or was it before, the candidate has to submit personal information to them.</p>

<p>For the rest of the process, I copied this information from someplace, two years ago:</p>

<p>Winner Selection
A variety of information is available for NMSC selectors to evaluate—the Finalist's academic record, information about the school's curricula and grading system, two sets of test scores, school recommendation, information about the student's activities and leadership, and the Finalist's own essay. All winners of Merit Scholarship® awards (Merit Scholar® designees) will be chosen from the Finalist group, based on their abilities, skills, and accomplishments.</p>

<p>Merit Scholar® Designees
Beginning in March, NMSC will notify approximately 8,000 Finalists that they have been selected to receive a Merit Scholarship® award. Merit Scholarship awards are of three types:
• National Merit® $2500 Scholarships
Every Finalist competes for these single payment scholarships, which are awarded on a state representational basis. (looks like they give about 2,500 of these)</p>

<p>College and University Sponsorship of Merit Scholarship® awards
Each year colleges and universities support more than 4,400 Merit Scholarship awards for Finalists who have been admitted and will attend their institutions. Only Finalists who notify NMSC by the published deadlines of their plans to attend a sponsor institution are considered for college-sponsored Merit Scholarship awards.
College-sponsored awards are renewable for up to four years of undergraduate study at the sponsor institution and provide stipends that range between $500 and $2,000 per year. Officials of each sponsor college select winners for their awards and determine the amount of the annual stipend within the specified range. College-sponsored Merit Scholarship awards are canceled if the winner decides not to attend the college financing the scholarship.</p>

<p>1,100 corporate-sponsored Merit Scholarship® awards</p>

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<p>Thanks calmom. I appreciate your thorough respones.</p>

<p>Just still wondering about appropriate safeties/matches. Anyone?</p>

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<p>If he wants Cornell, legacy will be worth a good bit if he applies ED, specifying Cornell as first choice. Otherwise, not sure it helps very much. So I've heard.</p>

<p>By the way none of the Ivies sponsor Merit Scholarships, nor does MIT.</p>

<p>MY daughter used our State U for her safety.</p>

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<p>Thank you, thank you, to momrath & to all! Such great advice from such smart, perceptive, pensive, sensitive, kind, articulate people... I do hope your offspring appreciate y'all as much as I do.</p>

<p>Much of what you & others have said so far, I do understand, have grasped, and I "get" it mostly... just got to get him to the same point.</p>

<p>Tell me, ratrhmom, what do you feel are the primary diffs b/t Wms & Amh?</p>

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<p>


</p>

<p>Williams and Amherst are like Siamese Twins with a lot of overlap in student type: extroverted, articulate, intellectual, multi-faceted. Both schools are academically excellent with good math, science, humanities and social studies departments across the board. They both provide a nuturing environment with accessible, though demanding, instructors.</p>

<p>My son is interested in art studio and art history which are particular strengths at Williams and particular weaknesses at Amherst, so Amherst was never really a good option for him; however, he really liked the town of Amherst which is a lively community enriched by the five college consortium.</p>

<p>Williams' location is more remote; it's in a mountain village which makes the campus community more insular. For my son this has been a real plus as the profound natural beauty and vibrant arts scene provide an ideal balance to the rigorous academics. Other Williams points of distinction are the tutorial program, winter study and the first year residential system.</p>

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<p>Thanks. Very helpful, momrath.</p>

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<p>I'm just curious. With no music and no sports, why did he pick Williams to put on the list? </p>

<p>I'm not saying that no-sports kid wouldn't enjoy Williams (I did), but those would be two primary things (along with art history) that differentiate Williams from other LACs. 40% of Williams students play on a varsity sports team -- the highest percentage of any school in the country. So the culture is decidedly athletic. I also think that a no-sports, no-music white male would be at a bit of disadvantage from an admisssions standpoint -- not insurmountable, but there are other comparable LACs where a no-sports white male could be demographically more attractive.</p>

<p>As for tech schools: I, personally, would not recommend that route unless the kid is absolutely, positively sure that math/science will be his direction. Your statement that "he has to work hard at it" would give me some pause. College level math/science is a different ballgame than high school work and probably the most common "surprise" is high school math/science whizes going to college and deciding that math/science is no longer their gig. Discovering that while enrolled at a tech school has some obvious complications! Given how good the math/science is at many "all-purpose" schools, I would recommend a high level of certainty or an absolute hatred of humanities as the threshold for considering tech schools.</p>

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<p>He visited Wms & Amh last summer on advice of relative, along w/ most of the Ivies & more. He LIKED Wms & Amh, but he's liked EVERYTHING he's seen! I didn't know that Wms. was that into sports. Thanks for the info. Personally, I don't think a LAC would be the best choice for him, actually, but he's got to think it too.</p>

<p>Your point about being certain about tech/sci major before going to a tech/sci school... that's one of the biggest dilemmas... Every time we talk about it, he still says strongly leaning to comp sci but won't say definitely. But if he IS going into it, MIT has an academic (including non-tech) & social environment that I think has his name written all over it... the Cambridge thing you know. I know the workload might be overpowering, and of course am not so cocky as to think there’s a place waiting for him there. Terrific competition. People from our HS are always surprised at the brainy ones who get rejected from there... the one kid going there in fall is over-the-top brilliant, took highest-caliber 12th-grade math in 9th grade, chess whiz, etc. My son is really smart, maybe really really smart, but not like that.</p>

<p>So still doing all this thinkin', still wondering 'bout comfy matches & safeties, as someone else said, to get "excited about".</p>

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<p>What area of the country does he want to be in?
How big of a school would he most like? 1-2000? 2-7000? 7000-15000? Or ginormous?</p>

15

<p>Open to area of the country. Would like small or medium, not large.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
MIT has an academic (including non-tech) & social environment that I think has his name written all over it... the Cambridge thing you know.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't know much about the social environment at MIT. Here is Mass., it's regarded as having a pretty substandard social environment. Very rigorous academics, but decades of neglect concerning the overall quality of undergrad life. For example, MIT traditionally has wiped its hands of residential life, farming that responsibility out to off-campus fraternity houses that were the only decent housing. That approach got a dash of cold water a few years ago from a well-publicized alcohol-poisoning death and MIT is now trying to play a catch up in terms of reigning in the fraternities and providing the basic fundamentals of an undergrad residential college.</p>

17

<p>maybe university of rochester as a match/safety? they have a good amount of merit-based aid for science-y people, but there are plenty of humanities/social science course offerings too. Plus it's in the northeast, yet neither in the sticks nor a huge city.</p>

18

<p>
[quote]
With no music and no sports, why did he pick Williams to put on the list?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>While involvement in a team sport is definitely not a prerequisite for Williams, most of the kids there are active in something physical. My son is not an athlete but he is outdoorsy and loves hiking and backpacking. Your son's involvement in Boy Scouts, especially Philmont, makes me think he'd fit in.</p>

<p>Having been at Cornell I guess you know what NE winters are like. If you're the type that likes to hibernate, it will be a long six months.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
My son is not an athlete

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But, he's an art history major, which makes Williams an obviously great top choice.</p>

<p>I guess I'm just encouraging people to think about specific reasons for picking specific schools. </p>

<p>An interest in art history is an excellent specific reason to pick Williams. Being a varsity caliber athlete with top academic qualifications is an excellent reason for picking Williams. Being a highly qualified academic student with a love for remote outdoorsy activities, especially winter activities, is an excellent specific reason for picking Williams. </p>

<p>There are other good reasons, too. I just see a lot of darts being thrown at the dartboard, perhaps because of rankings or prestige, and I would encourage next year's seniors to focus more specifically on how a college's strengths match up with their interests and personalities. I feel like that was the number one thing I learned from helping my daughter go through the process and I wish I had learned it earlier.</p>

<p>For example, I'm having a very difficult time picturing the same kid really being a good fit for MIT (the ultimate nerd braniac-bootcamp future-PhD school) and Williams (largely pre-professional: med, law, biz with a side-order of major museum curators). </p>

<p>As you know, I find it almost unfathomable that any one student could be a good fit at all of "the Ivies". I mean, could you get any more different than Columbia and Dartmouth? The two schools don't even remotely resemble each other. New Hamshire versus NYC? How could you not have a preference, one way or the other?</p>

<p>My advice, curl up with the Fiske Guide and start matching up school "personalities" with the kid's personality. I think a parent's role is to encourage their kids to start thinking this way. Kids are looking for a framework; otherwise college selection is just this big, amorphous blob that can be a little overwhelming -- the big reason that they are reluctant to engage the process.</p>

20

<p>Here's some schools where surveyed students think that each of the following departments are strong at their school: Comp Sci, Math and Engineering:</p>

<p>Princeton
Stanford
MIT
Dartmouth
Rice
Washington U
Harvey Mudd
UC Berkeley
UCLA
RPI
U Michigan
U Illinois
U Wisconsin</p>

<p>A lot of these are pretty big schools. If he's actually thinking of applying to an engineering school, maybe it's a good idea if the place at least HAS engineering ? There is a linkage between Computer Science and Electrical Engineering, though perhaps many Comp Sci people don't head in that direction.</p>

<p>The above info is from Rugg's Recommendations, which is another guide book you might look for. It just summarizes these survey results, but they can potentially be of some guidance.</p>

<p>Ultimately when your son gets into this, you may find he has whole other sets of criteria that you, or he, didn't even know about. At least that was my experience.</p>