Chances of getting into USC Law

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>I just finished taking the LSAT and I feel awful. I did well on the practice tests but I think that the pressure of the actual test affected my performance. I don't feel I did well enough and I am worried because I want to go to USC Law. If I didn't do too well, like a 140-150 but I have other things going for me, is it possible to get in? I am simply not good at testing, but I am highly intelligent. The SATs are supposed to measure how well you will do in college, but I didn't do too well on that either. Lower than a 1300 and that obviously was not accurate in how I am doing in college nor does it measure everything else about a person like talent or ambition. Would it also be benefitial to tell the school that to prove I am an intelligent and promising student, but that I am simply not a good tester?</p>

<p>I currently attend USC and I am majoring in Political Science. Due to my advanced courses in HS and some college classes I took during HS, I am graduating a year early. I should be a junior but I am a senior. My GPA is 3.966, I am on the Dean's list, I have a command of 5 languages, I took challenging and diverse courses, I was born outside the U.S. and came here at 7 and had to learn English and catch up to native speakers, I am the first in my family to apply to a professional school, I tutor people and sometimes volunteer at church or events like AIDS walk, and I have an unusual career goal: to be president of Mexico (no joke). I have achieved these things even though I also have to take care of my household (I live with my mother and she is sick). So, given these facts, is it possible I would get in because I demonstrate academic advancement, dedication, and ambition?</p>

2

<p>What practice scores were you getting? If you're serious about attending USC and you really feel that you would get a much higher score if you took the exam again, then you should CANCEL YOUR LSAT SCORE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. This is because multiple LSAT scores are averaged for all law schools, so even if you scored a 145 this time and a 165 next time, your average would be a 155, which is the difference between a top 20 school (165) and a top 50 school (155). Even though December is the last test date allowed for many law schools, it would still be a better idea to cancel your score now and reapply next year, if you're sure that you could get a higher score.</p>

<p>If you choose not to retake, then honestly you basically have zero chance at USC with an LSAT score in the 140s, even with a 3.966 GPA. The fact is that the LSAT score is the single most important factor in law school admissions, and the 25th percentile LSAT score for USC is around 160, while the median is about 165. Even with a score in the 150s, you'd have an uphill climb.</p>

3

<p>I'm Blue: she only has 9 days to cancel, and some schools do not look favourably upon that - they know that you've already been "exposed" to the test under actual testing conditions.</p>

<p>If you don't break a 155, count out the top 25 schools - that's pretty much the bare minimum cut-off to get through the door. Your very high GPA and low SAT can work for you at some schools - but with such a big split, you can't get your heart set on one school. I would highly recommend
1. re-taking anything under a 150 if you feel you can do better;
2. taking a year off to apply - it is simply too important to get into a good law school at the beginning; and
3. apply to law schools (such as BC and American) which request SAT scores. Also, provide your SAT score in an addendum explaining your low LSAT score. Show that it underpredicts your college performance.</p>

4

<p>Yes, and the LSAT was Dec. 3, so she has until Dec. 12. Of course a cancel is worse than just a score alone, but if she got a 140-150 like she says, that score's going to hurt a lot more than a cancel and a much higher score, assuming she can get it.</p>

5

<p>"...to be president of Mexico"</p>

<p>Why do you want an American law degree if you dream of going back and being president of Mexico?</p>

<p>Unless you are planning to practice in the US, an American law degree will be useless. I would look into business and/or public policy masters'.</p>

<p>Mexico's legal system: mixture of US constitutional theory and civil law system; judicial review of legislative acts; accepts compulsory ICJ jurisdiction, with reservations</p>

<p>US legal system: federal court system based on English common law; each state has its own unique legal system, of which all but one (Louisiana's) is based on English common law; judicial review of legislative acts; accepts compulsory ICJ jurisdiction with reservations</p>

6

<p>"Unless you are planning to practice in the US, an American law degree will be useless."</p>

<p>I do want to practice here, but being president is my ultimate goal. There is nothing wrong with holding a law degree here, practicing or teaching, and then moving on to something else. Obviously, I need something to fall back on. Plus, having a law degree is not just about practicing law. Many people go to law school to acquire better reasoning and analytical skills. To learn how to interpret and use the law and any document or idea. Those skills are key to any career, so it will not be useless. Thinking like a lawyer is beneficial. Law professors themselves have said that. I will be able to apply them to my career in Mexico. It is only a plus to be highly educated. </p>

<p>"If you choose not to retake, then honestly you basically have zero chance at USC with an LSAT score in the 140s, even with a 3.966 GPA."</p>

<p>Yes, I realize that if I get that score, that is the greatest possibility. I won't cancel the score, however. I'd rather just wait to see what I got and then decide if I will apply this year or not. I am already a year ahead anyway. If I applied for the year after, I'd only be back on schedule.</p>

<p>I don't know that I completely failed it, but I am still stressed about it. However, there are so many other things I have going for me that I feel they would take those into consideration. I had people tell me the I had zero chance at USC with my SAT score and look where I am now.</p>

<p>"Also, provide your SAT score in an addendum explaining your low LSAT score. Show that it underpredicts your college performance."</p>

<p>I think I would talk about that in the section where USC Law allows you to explain how low grades and LSAT score do not predict your future performance and promise. I am seriously just not a good standardized test taker. I need more time, but I do understand the questions. I simply panic, especially because I keep thinking that if I don't do well, I won't go to a good school and my life will be over. Obviously, the SAT did not predict my performance or promise at all. I am doing much better than most people I know who got a 1400 or above. I am sure USC Law has accepted people with high scores and regretted it when they simply didn't do as well as those with more determination and ambition who didn't have such high scores. They can't be completely biased against those who had lower scores.</p>

<p>I also asked if an interview is possible. I want them to see who I am and how dedicated and hard working I am.</p>

7

<p>I am not trying to question your motives or to be confrontational. However, make sure you do understand that an American law degree is not the end to your dreams --not even necessary.</p>

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<p>Then why go back? While you may not be president here, you can still be very successful in different government jobs.</p>

<p>If being president, however, is indeed your ultimate goal, I would worry more about establishing political connections back home. I would also start thinking more in terms of who your constituency will be and why they should/would vote for you. Remember, you are catering to them. They may not even want an American-trained lawyer after all; maybe they want a union leader...just food for thought. </p>

<p>Oh, and I am not saying go and become an union leader, but your constituencies and connections are definitely key factors/players if you are doing more than just dreaming.</p>

<p>"There is nothing wrong with holding a law degree here, practicing or teaching, and then moving on to something else."</p>

<p>A law degree from the country where you ultimately plan to enter politics will be a better fit.</p>

<p>"Obviously, I need something to fall back on."</p>

<p>An MBA from a top school would be just as versatile (and probably more useful overseas.)</p>

<p>"Plus, having a law degree is not just about practicing law. Many people go to law school to acquire better reasoning and analytical skills."</p>

<p>You can do that enrolling in other programs. For politics, I would recommend a M Public Policy.</p>

<p>"To learn how to interpret and use the law and any document or idea. Those skills are key to any career, so it will not be useless."</p>

<p>Yet, not everyone goes to law school.</p>

<p>"Thinking like a lawyer is beneficial."</p>

<p>In which country?</p>

<p>"Law professors themselves have said that."</p>

<p>I would be surprised if they said they teach a load of ***</p>

<p>"I will be able to apply them to my career in Mexico."</p>

<p>Slightly different legal system. You may still want to pursue some sort of legal master's there. I even think you would be best served by getting a Mexican law degree and then pursuing an LLM here.</p>

<p>"It is only a plus to be highly educated."</p>

<p>We agree :). Now, don't go out there and get five degrees ;).</p>

<p>Remember keep things in context.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

8

<p>From all I have heard, canceling your score is not that big of a deal, as long as it only happens once. I think if you do well on your second try, they will simply trust your judgment in canceling the first one. </p>

<p>A low score will definitively stand against you, and preclude you from admission to many schools.
A cancelled score may or may not have a negative effect at some schools, but probably schools that you would not even be considered for if you kept your poor score (assuming it is 150 or below).</p>

<p>I think this deserves some attention from the more experienced posters.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
However, there are so many other things I have going for me that I feel they would take those into consideration.

[/quote]

[quote]
I am sure USC Law has accepted people with high scores and regretted it when they simply didn't do as well as those with more determination and ambition who didn't have such high scores. They can't be completely biased against those who had lower scores.

[/quote]

If you scored under 150, I guarantee you that a computer or secretary will throw your application in the garbage before a human even has a chance to read any of your essays or addenda. I'm not even kidding. In the last admissions cycle, USC Law received 1009 applications with LSAT scores under 150 and accepted ZERO of them. Among applicants with 150-154 LSAT and 3.75+ GPA, they accepted 6 out of 110, while among those with 155-159 LSAT and 3.75+ GPA, they accepted 19 out of 232. I'll take a shot in the dark and assume that you're Hispanic, which might give you a slight chance, but only if you score over 150.
<a href="http://officialguide.lsac.org/OFFGUIDE/pdf/lsac4852.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://officialguide.lsac.org/OFFGUIDE/pdf/lsac4852.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
I had people tell me the I had zero chance at USC with my SAT score and look where I am now.

[/quote]

With all due respect, this isn't the same thing at all. USC undergrad's 25th percentile SAT is 1300, which you scored close to, while USC law's 25th LSAT is 163. Applying to USC Law with a 150 is like applying to USC undergrad with a 900-1000 SAT.</p>

10

<p>Jennifer,</p>

<p>If you really feel you didn't perform as well as you have the potential to score on the LSAT, cancel the score. Admissions committees are far more likely to overlook a cancelled score than a low score. Also, it's not like applying to college, where they may only consider your highest score; they'll look at all your scores if you re-take the test. (In my day, some schools only looked at the first score; check the FAQ for each school to which you're applying.) It's true that a low score may keep your application from being considered at all. </p>

<p>If your score is high enough to get your application read, your interesting background should definitely come into play.</p>

11

<p>I don't mean to sound harsh - please understand that the law school application process made me jaded and cynical.</p>

<p>I was an engineer. Not only that, but I had enough medical problems to make me a medical wonder. Completely killed my grades, though. I am utterly convinced that about 80% of the schools I applied to just didn't care. They don't care that my engineering background and the fact that I could get through that degree means that I'm obviously a hard worker with solid analytical skills. They don't care that anyone else in my position would have dropped out of college. They really only care that my GPA was low. I had a very high LSAT, which compensated with some schools; however, LSAT is, for most schools, more important than your grades. I went through hell trying to get in the door of a good law school... I cannot imagine that you will have any easier a time. </p>

<p>The first thing you (and anyone else) needs to realize about law school admissions is that it's not undergrad. There are no warm-fuzzy considerations; it's all about how good you will make the school look in US News. Law schools care more about that than they do about the fact that you could be an incredible legal thinker. </p>

<p>Apply to "GPA" schools - like Georgetown. Also, paradoxically, you'll have a better shot at established top-25 schools than you will at tier 2 schools. Basically, UT Austin knows that it isn't going to slip in the rankings very much - people regard it highly enough so that a little bit of a slip from a few "different" students is not a concern. On the other hand, schools that are jockeying for a higher US News ranking (because they aren't nationally recognized) will place a higher emphasis on the numbers.</p>

<p>Consider a transfer: there have been some discussions a while back about transferring if you don't look like a good candidate upon graduation, but would do well in law school. Law schools don't report the stats of their transfer students to US News.</p>

<p>Moving on to one final thing... LSAT is highly predicitive of law school performance. Now, the reason for that is simple: it (fairly closely) mimics the high-stakes, all-or-nothing testing that happens in law schools. Generally, your entire grade for a class will hinge upon one final exam, given over about three hours, that you will not be expected to finish. I can say that law school exams, no matter how prepared you are, are just stressful: the experience is designed to wreck you. If you stress a lot during tests, please, please figure out how to manage that before going to law school... whether by those cheesy "visualization therapy" methods, by taking enough tests under stress conditions that you get used to it, by taking up a highly competitive sport... whatever. LSAT is used so highly because it predicts ability to take law school exams - but both are mediocre proxies for legal scholarship. (For that reason, search out schools that might not put so much emphasis - like 98% of your grade emphasis - on a single exam. Some schools have mid-years;; some have writing as a graded course and not just P/F; some have a lot of upper-level seminars that give take-homes.)</p>

<p>Good luck. Search out "Xiggi's test prep advice' on the other fora - he has some great SAT advice that it dead-on for LSAT studying as well.</p>

12

<p>Ariesathena brings up very valid points. You may think that the law schools care that you're a hard worker, or that you have dedication and ambition, or that you'll interview well, but at the end of the day, they only care about admitting students with high LSAT scores and GPAs that will boost their US News rankings.</p>

13

<p>For the record, the SAT is no great indicator of how people do in college, or high school for that matter. It does an amazing job of seeing how people do on taking the SAT, though.</p>

<p>Your case sounds interesting and hopefully you did far better than you thought. There are many law schools besides USC to consider, and hopefully you end up doing something that you enjoy.</p>

14

<p>Drab, the SAT is an indicator of performance on the SAT? You don't say! (I'm just joshing you). </p>

<p>Anyway, I think the question comes down to this:
Should she cancel her score, given that she is convinced she did not perform up to her inherent ability?</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
Should she cancel her score, given that she is convinced she did not perform up to her inherent ability?

[/quote]

I think the more relevant question is: Is she convinced that she could score better on a retake? She says she doesn't test well on standardized tests in general.</p>