changing bed pans vs. a college education

Parents Forum
1

<p>A concern that keeps cropping up in many of the individual college threads is tuition. I posted this in the JHU forum as one student had a concern that his parents would be bitter with him for the rest of his life if he turned down full rides to multiple colleges to pay full sticker price at JHU (52k). Another member requested that I post my answer again in the parent forum so here it is. Enjoy.</p>

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Concerning your parents: I think my English teacher had one of the funniest (and most insightful) things to say about parents.</p>

<p>"When you look back at what you said and did to your parents, you cringe. And you cringe so much that when they call you at 4 in the morning to change their bedpan, you'll do it. Even it means you have to drive 2 hours to get there. If they called and asked you for your arm for a stew, you would ask which one?</p>

<p>why? because when we get older, we realize all the crap we put our parents through; we realize how many of those worry lines and wrinkles are caused by us and we realize how much they have given up to provide a comfortable life. We realize that they essentially put their life on hold for four years to give us what we want in college, whether that means tuition money or a spring vacation."</p>

<p>My english teacher went to Harvard and he told us this little tidbit in November before ED/EA decisions started coming out. Your parents may be bitter for a few years but they will still love you and that love will overtake their bitterness. But that's when your bitterness starts to build and you feel guilty about making them pay full private sticker price when you could have gotten an equal education at another institution for a fraction of the price. Keep in mind that we're heading into a recession so "probably afford" can quickly turn into "huge unnecessary burden that will hopefully be paid off by the time I'm 40."</p>

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<p>Questions, comments, and any more perspectives, whether it be from student, parent, or "other" would be welcome.</p>

2

<p>I rid myself of a lot of that guilt by telling myself I'm 15 years younger than the oldest child in the family and they planned on having me, so they knew what they had coming. :p</p>

3

<p>I don't see how a kid can MAKE their parents pay anything.</p>

<p>If the parents are going to be bitter and hold it against the kid, then don't do it.</p>

<p>that said, I did choose to pay upwards of 15K to send my son to a private school of his dreams (he got big $$ from the school and knows he is taking on perkins and stafford loans) vs spending 10K for local state U (and less loans for him).</p>

<p>what is upsetting is that so many people can't even afford to pay 10K per year towards college. That really limits option for all but the poorest and/or most exceptional of students.</p>

4

<p>My brother's plan to pay them back for putting our parents through a lot of stress in high school? Get rich and buy them a condo for retirement with hired help :D</p>

<p>My plan? I'm already the favorite child. :)</p>

<p>I don't think my parents will hold money against us as long we're both very happy with our lives. The happier I am with my life and college education, my parents don't complain about paying private tuition at my school. My brother, on the other hand, is riskier and my parents just hoping for the best...</p>

5

<p>Ah, feeling beholding to someone. Yuck!</p>

<p>I agree with what my father told me back in the 1960's--the best gift a parent can give a child is for the parent to never be financially dependent on the child. I agree with sueinphilly to the extent that if parents have a concern about their retirement/elder care (including medical needs) DON'T put themselves at risk financially for their kids' education.</p>

<p>I also think that the student who has a substantial merit scholarship and/or large grants at one school ought to consider whether the adult thing to do is go to that school rather than a "dream school" where there is little or no financial assitance. As I understand it, if the student takes out loans the parents have to sign and/or provide collateral. So, "financing" a dream college this way simply is another form of debt for the PARENTS.</p>

<p>I respect my S for the work that went into achieving the profile to get merit money and the maturity to make the choice to make a substantial contribution to his own college education by accepting the offer at that school rather than looking to us to pay more to satisfy his assessment of what might make him more "happy." </p>

<p>I think this adult respect has helped S realize that he can make his way in life no matter what happens to us. That is a great awareness at 19.</p>

<p>If I need my bed pan attended to in the future, I'll try my darnest to make sure I can afford help. If S chooses to come to do it, I want it to be from love not guilt.</p>

6

<p>My parents gave me neither a college education nor spring break vacations. My five older siblings managed to qualify for some need-based aid, but as the last child in my father's highest earning years, I got some merit aid only. They could have afforded to help me, but refused. I took five years to get through my engineering program, because I had to do the co-op program to pay for school. They put nothing on hold and I would NEVER do that to my kids.</p>

<p>Now, my mother lives 2 hours away. She's 87 and wants to drive to see us on the highway, and complains incessantly when I insist on driving to get her so she can come here to see her grandchildren's events. Some people are royal pains their whole lives, whether they paid for your education or not.</p>

7

<p>"When you look back at what you said and did to your parents, you cringe."</p>

<p>Thats a rather presumptuous statement. Not everyone was horrible to their parents. I can't think of anything I've put my parents through that makes me cringe.</p>

8

<p>hmmmm..guess I need to go in to therapy. I am from a family of 6 girls. Parents were divorced after 20 something years...I'm in my fifties....(cringe!!!)
I was the the third child and first to go to college....Dad refused to pay with his high powered job and hidden assests and Mom had all kids and a minimum wage job...got great merit aid at local LAC in PA and I struggled to pay the rest with Dad living the high life as Mom tried to stay off welfare with the younger three. Sometimes it's not just the room, board and tuition but also toiletries, spending money and gas money to get home. It was hard work but worth the price of admission!</p>

9

<p>and the lessons you learned from the whole life experience: priceless.</p>

10

<p>
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It was hard work but worth the price of admission!

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<p>In my opinion, your determination to get an education and not merely crater with self-pity when you had to shoulder the load will (and probably has) serve you well throughout your entire life.</p>

<p>If you want something bad enough, go get it. In the final analysis, it really isn't up to anyone other than you. If others assist you, so be it, but at some core level, I speculate that you now enjoy not being beholding to anyone for the education you achieved on your own.</p>

11

<p>My older d's education was close to free - it cost us less to send her to Smith than the cost would have been for her to attend the local community college and live at home. But she has taken a vow of poverty (a musicologist) and will b e poor (but happy) for life. The younger one's education will cost 4-5X that much, but she's going to be rich, and take care of all the rest of us.</p>

<p>Eh - what's the money for, anyway? Our owners in Saudi Arabia and China are going to end up with all of it anyway, so does it matter what institution the intermediary is? :rolleyes:</p>

12

<p>mini, what are you saying - 4-5X? Zero times any number is zero! ;)</p>

13

<p>I consider a parent paying for their kid's college education to be a "luxury". Whether they started a college fund when they were little; or if Mom/Dad has a high paying job; or whether the parents played it by ear when the time comes. It's still a luxury. </p>

<p>Don't get me wrong; I would have gladly paid for kid's college education (to State "U" ) if they needed it. Fortunately for me; because my daughter pulled off scholarships and such, we only pay about $3,000 a YEAR for her college and about another $2,000 for spending money and odds and ends. She worked hard and got the money she needed for college. My son pulled off 3 full rides, 2 half rides, and 2 partials. It isn't costing us a penny for him. Other than some spending money each month that we will put into his bank account.</p>

<p>Personally; I think the kids will do much better by getting into college on their own. Whether it's with scholarships, grants, loans, working and taking night courses, etc... than then do by having parents pay for it. What is so different between this generation and those born in the 50's and 60's? Why was it that MANY if not most of us in that generation worked our way through college and it made us better individuals financially and with maturity. Yet, for some reason this generation and the parents feel they should have the highest college that they can get into paid for by the parents? Has this generation become so spoiled or has the parents of this generation become guilt ridden because they had to get through college on their own and they don't want their kids to go through this?</p>

<p>I know for a FACT that I am a better person because my parents didn't pay a thing for me to go to college. I know for a FACT that my kids will be better people because they got themselves through college pretty much on their own. They APPRECIATE the money we give them for school. Both kids were accepted to $50,000+ a year universities. They chose to go to the ones that they got scholarships and full rides to. They understand the value of being debt free. They understand the PRIDE in being able to say they did it themselves. It was good for me and it's good for them. </p>

<p>Yes, I have the money, but I WON'T pay for them to go to a $50,000 a year school. Now; if a State "U" is going to cost $5000-$10000 a year including scholarships, dorm, etc.... And they can get an Ivy or mega school for the same price or a little more with scholarships; e.g. $10,000-$15,000; then yes, I would help them do that. But that's a lot different that comparing $5000 a year and $40,000 a year. There's no comparison. But it is all relative. If I made $1 Million a year, then a $50K a year school wouldn't bother me. If you Make $100,000 - $200,000 a year, then $50K a year is 25-50% of your income. Paying for that is plain Stupid. Then again, whether or not you had an education fund for the kid, I will never see paying those high prices. Not unless you made that million a year. Fortunately; many of the high end schools like HYPS and others are a lot cheaper when all is said and done. Most people only pay about $15K a year to go to them.</p>

14

<p>"mini, what are you saying - 4-5X? Zero times any number is zero!"</p>

<p>Add a community college tuition, plus living expenses at home, and you have the annual cost of older d's ed. Multiply that by 4-5x.</p>

15

<p>Oh, mini, I was just kidding. But OTH, even if the answer to your mathematical problem might seem miniscule compared to the full cost of some privates!</p>

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<p>Guess I need to add... yes, I made it through with no help... but I swore I would never do this to a child of mine. And I won't. Umless you have lived through not having the resources, you don't know what it is like to dream big and realize that your dreams may never come to fruition.:(</p>

17

<p>I feel like an intruder since I'm not a parent but there are some things that seriously need to be addressed.</p>

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thats a rather presumptuous statement. Not everyone was horrible to their parents. I can't think of anything I've put my parents through that makes me cringe.

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<p>That's good for you. I (actually, my teacher) was not referring to you; he was pulling upon his experiences and the experiences of others that he knows. For most, (though certainly not all) this holds true. Whether it be that we were late for curfew too many times, were caught drinking/smoking/[insert other], yelling that we hate our parents/they suck/other general abuses. If you did nothing and were a saint, then God bless. </p>

<p>Christcorp, your post is riddled with assumptions and faulty logic. How do you know for a FACT that you're better off because your parents didn't pay for college? How do you know that your children are going to be better people because they didn't pay their way through college? In fact, most people would argue the other way. By paying for college, you realize the value of education; if you have a full ride, you're paying jack squat but getting a 50k/yr education for free. I don't know about anyone else, but that doesn't sound like you understand the value of money. In fact, it gives you a sense that when you need money, it'll appear. And explain how you can appreciate the value of graduating debt free if you had a full ride and never had to worry about it in the first place? That sounds like your pride in your kids talking, not logic.</p>

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It was good for me and it's good for them.

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Stereotype much? That sounds like bitterness trapped for years manifesting itself in a "character building" type argument.</p>

<p>Also, $50k+ a year doesn't automatically mean the school is top notch.</p>

<p>In fact, I would argue that I have a better sense of money and its worth because of my parents. They wanted to pay as much as possible for my education and they wanted to pay off my student loans. Considering my career plans (pediatric neurosurgery), this would have cost over 500k if I went to an private undergrad + med school + residency +fellowships. Luckily, your kids got a full ride for whatever reason. I'm a top notch student but so is everyone else. I don't qualify for aid because I'm in the "upper middle class." which basically translates to "the people who make enough to get screwed by financial aid but need it." I turned down an elite private college for my prestigious state university because of the cost. I wasn't offered any aid. So I made my college decision on which one would allow me to pursue my intended career with minimal debt. Sorry, "my generation" has no sense of money or its value. </p>

<p>oh wait. we do.</p>

<p>So many students these days don't realize how much college tuition has increased and how expensive it is. </p>

<p>false. a record number of students are turning down expensive privates because they realize they can't afford it. But of course, that doesn't demonstrate knowledge of money and its worth.</p>

18

<p>This is a debate that can never have one best answer, as so much depends on a person's experience.</p>

<p>I went to a state U for UG and a state U for prof school. I joined the alumni network of both, but have never been back. Then I taught at (HYP) for 17 years, and also worked at 2 LACs. I loved my colleagues and felt I had best job in world. I loved the campuses and the environments of these private schools and the students. I could appreciate the ties that build when a student lives in a House for years, rather than apartments after freshman year.</p>

<p>So S is now graduating from a private college. He performed better than I could imagine, with ECs, GPA, friends, and merit award/jobs since freshman year. I do hope he looks back on his UG years with fonder memories than I do, and does not regret that there is little money left for prof school, new car, vacations, condo, etc. When he is a parent facing the choice of where to send his children it will be interesting to see what he does. </p>

<p>again, we made our decision based on S's interest in a specialized tech school. Had I enjoyed my life in state schools better, my view would be quite different.</p>

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<p>My parents said they would pay state college tuition cost to any college I wanted to attend. If I wanted more, I would have to pay myself. I wanted a more expensive private education so I lived at home, worked, and took out loans to get it. I was fortunate that my dream school was in a neighboring town.</p>

<p>I was proud of my determination, and felt I had obtained a superior academic experience, until that beloved alma mater, for which I sacrificed to attend, waitlisted my daughter last month :(</p>

20

<p>db123; You too are making assumptions. You asked me; "How do I know I did better because my parents didn't pay for my college". Well, the answer is; I have the advantage of being almost 50 years old and having the luxury of being able to look back in retrospect. I have the advantage of having been brought up without the luxuries and the disposable cash that today's generation has. It is not something that I actually expect you to understand. Contrary to what some young people may think, us old farts have gone through just about everything you have. We've been there, seen it, did it, and have the T-shirt AND the Movie Rights. We're not talking from a position of not knowing. The hardest job a parent today has is providing our children with the luxuries of modern days and technologies without spoiling them. I have seen those; my peers; who were brought up in an environment where everything, including college, was handed to them. I also have seen that majority of our generation where once you turned 18 and graduated from high school, that you were basically on your own. Not that parents didn't help, most did in some form or another. Just that they weren't going to take out mega loans for you to go to college. Those who did most on their own definitely have a different appreciation for life.</p>

<p>Something else you need to realize is that 99% of everything our children did or said to us wasn't "horrible". What I mean is; being late for curfew, getting caught drinking, saying they hate us, etc... is NOT being horrible to their parents. Again, I don't know how old you are, but as someone who has probably done and said everything to my parents that my kids have said or done to me; as well as their friends with their parents; puts us in a position where we understand the "Whys". I know I wasn't trying to be mean or horrible to my parents, and I know my kids feel the same way. it's called growing up and we understand it as parents. Can't tell you how many times I've had to be stern and strict with my kids and as I walk away from them try and hold back the giggles because I remember doing the same thing when I was a kid. The first mistake EVERY KID does; but there's no way around it; is to say to their parent; "You don't understand!" Guess what? YES WE DO!!! There isn't one thing that you're going through that we PROBABLY didn't go through ourselves. It's been that way for thousands of years. The vast majority of the time, kids think parents are out of touch. Parents think; "God, when will puberty end?" Then when our kids have kids and we are grand parents; and OUR kids talk about their kids; we sit back and laugh our butt off when they aren't listening.</p>

<p>College is actually cheaper today than it was 30 years ago. Not necessarily in dollars but in actual spent money. 30 years ago, if you were the number 1 kid in high school, you could probably get a great scholarship. If you were big into sports or music, you could usually pull off a scholarship. Most everyone else paid full price to whatever school. They took out loans. Today, there are a lot more scholarships and aid for those who want to go to college. Even the average student going to HYPS etc... will only pay about $15,000 a year. In today's dollar, that isn't that much. </p>

<p>Kid today have a sense of value. No argument. I just believe that everyone has a better sense of a dollar when they have to work for it. And you are totally wrong about a kid not having a good sense of money because they received scholarships and you have a better sense because your parents wanted to pay for all of your college. There's no sense in that at all. You are assuming that if a kid gets a full ride offer to go to college then it was a free handout and they can't appreciate the value in it. The truth is; both kids busted their butt in high school getting the grades and applying for all the various scholarships that got them that full ride. They wouldn't have gotten it without their hard work. On the contrary; I believe because they worked hard to get to college, that they will appreciate it more than if I had just let them know for most of their life that college will automatically be taken care of for them. </p>

<p>Like many here have echoed; many of us believe in helping our kids with college. Most of us believe that the reasonable plan is to pay or help pay for a good reasonable State "U" type of plan. Then, anything after that or if they want a more expensive school, that they make up the difference. That is reasonable. My kids WORKED their way with their grades, essays, applications, etc... to getting to the schools they are in. That is how they got their offers. They did it on their own. I helped when they asked, but they are the ones who got the grades and filled out the applications and researched the scholarships. They will appreciate that more than if I had paid for it all.</p>