<p>On the first sentence…the pacing of a given course is usually geared for the middle 50% of that school’s students based on academic ability and work ethic. If the pacing is far slower at another given school, it is often a good indication that their middle-50% wouldn’t be able to take the course pacing at the faster paced school. </p>
<p>This was the reason why a friend who took Mandarin refresher courses at his state university after graduating from our LAC said it was good thing he never considered taking summer Mandarin courses to advance one year. If he did…it would have been a non-starter as what is covered in 1 year at Oberlin would necessitate 2 years at his state uni due to the needs of the middle-50% or so of their students. </p>
<p>A few friends at/graduated from MIT found they were strongly discouraged from taking core STEM courses at their local state unis during the summer because the coverage/depth/rigor wasn’t up to those of their home university. </p>
<p>Heck, I knew of several MIT students who took advantage of the MIT-Harvard cross-registration for the purpose of avoiding the more rigorous STEM courses at their home institution…and Harvard students who did the same for humanities/social science courses. </p>
<p>Moreover, not all lower-tiered universities are flexible enough to offer options and challenges for their above-average-top academic achievers. </p>
<p>Several high school classmates who were C/D students at our highly rigorous competitive public magnet and ended up going to our local state/city schools found themselves severely underwhelmed academically and stymied by an inflexible bureaucracy who were more concerned with educating remedial and average students. </p>
<p>It’s pretty bad when you’re pulling A/A+ level grades without learning much because the rest of the class is struggling to get Cs in the same given courses. Not surprisingly…they ended up “transferring up” to schools like Reed, CMU, Cornell, etc; found the pacing there much more suited to their own; and still graduated with 3.5+ cumulative GPAs from their new schools…and as mostly STEM majors to boot.</p>
<p>college_query’s experience with her daughter and Arabic is exactly what my son experienced at Tufts. And no he wouldn’t have been advanced to a higher level at a college with an easier Arabic course, but he would almost certainly have gotten A’s (like he did last summer in Jordan) rather than the C+ he ended up with last year at Tufts. For kids gifted in languages they definitely cover more material in a course that has the same description (Beginning Arabic). For my son, he might well have been better off in some respects at a school where he got more A’s. He’s definitely going to be hurt by his GPA when looking for jobs and internships. OTOH, he’s had some amazing courses and experiences, that other schools don’t offer. He’s spending next year abroad in the middle east with the intention of finally mastering Arabic so that it hopefully won’t be an issue and a drag on his GPA when he returns for his senior year.</p>
<p>I don’t think there’s an easy answer to the question, especially since it is almost impossible to predict how your child will actually do in college. My straight A older son went for the most rigorous program. He didn’t get straight A’s in college, but he’s got his dream job in computer science. No question that for him going to a top rated program for his major was the right choice. It would have been worth it even if he’d had big loans - his salary could easily pay them off in a few of years.</p>
<p>Some courses may or may not be more rigorous at other colleges. My experience with European languages at Harvard was that by spring they had you reading unabridged novels, not so at the local CC college where I took a refresher course several years later.</p>
<p>That isn’t true. It is especially untrue if the sentence is revised to say “…there will always be kids who are better at your subject than you are.” That’s actually what matters, IMO.</p>
<p>If there isn’t a critical mass of students who are at least as good as you are in a given subject, it’s unlikely that you’re going to learn a heck of a lot…especially outside the STEM fields.</p>
<p>cbug - I’m having the exact same dilemma with my S. Does he go to CMU and kill himself with their extremely rigorous comp sci program or go to a LAC and relax a little more? In the end, it has to be his choice. He has to ultimately decide how he wants to spend the next 4 years of his life and what he wants to get out of it.</p>
<p>Post #19, ignore food in mouth problem. It’s not just this thread it’s on multiple thread. Likely to spread erroreous information.
OP, I think it depends on the kid, I’m wondering of the same issue.</p>
<p>Please don’t let another poster’s criticisms of your very relevant questions bother you.</p>
<p>There IS a big difference in how classes are taught at different schools. And that’s OK. It’s just that different kids need different things. I don’t think there is that much difference between an ivy and a great LAC, but there is a difference with some less academically oriented schools. The expectations of students, the pacing, the general attitude are all different. Sure, any student can find a professor to work with him/her and can rise to the top. But I strongly disagree with the assumption that the rigor is the same at all schools.</p>
<p>If you go into ‘My Control Panel’. There is a setting called ‘Edit Ignore List’. You can put in SteveMA and you’ll never see any of his posts again. I do that with a number of CC users who offend me. It makes CC much more pleasant to be on. </p>
<p>I think it’s really important that the rigor of a school be well matched to a student. Some people like it really hard and are willing to go the extra mile to be successful. But for other students, it’s a recipe for disaster. </p>
<p>Different schools have different levels of rigor. That’s a fact.</p>
<p>I am a FIRM believer of by going to a more rigorous school one would get a better education. D2 went to 2 different high schools - one very rigorous and another one average. She felt she was much more challenged at the rigorous school, discussions in class were more interesting and deeper, in math and science classes, pace was faster and students were able to to come more interesting way of solving problems.</p>
<p>I would encourage my kid to go to a more rigorous schools (if a school admitted her, she must be able to do the work).</p>
<p>I believe a kids comfort is the top priority. You want your kid to be a success and you want him to feel like he can handle everything that is thrown at him. If you know without a doubt that your kid will have trouble at one school then it should be out of the question. There is a lot of discussion going on in this post, about the classes and all the different aspects of the schools, but the bottom line is you need to do what is best for him.</p>
<p>It would be awful for him to try to go the more challenging school and then suffer failure. He could get all stressed out and even though he is trying really hard, it just becomes too much for him. That can be hard to get over from the kids point of view.</p>
<p>It is important to remember how hard it is for many kids to just go away to school and leave home. Right there he will be facing a challenge. After that, the rest of schools challenges will have to be faced. Keep him in his comfort zone and keep everybody happy.</p>
<p>I had a similar conversation with DD today. She is very smart, and she wants a school where students take academics seriously. BUT, she also is involved in other activities, and she can get overwhelmed if the work is piled on.
We scratched one school off the list today for that reason. It is a great school, with everything on DD’s list, but it has a rep of having stressed out students with very heavy workloads. DD would be miserable. She needs a school that will encourage her, and nurture a bit, so that she works up to her potential and gets the most out of school. But for her, if everyone is freaked out all the time about finishing work it would have the opposite effect.</p>
<p>On the other hand, DS is at one of those schools “where fun goes to die” and he is thriving. He needs that kind of environment to keep going and get his work done. If he feels he can slack off, he will. And then he digs himself into a hole. (and he is having fun too!)</p>
<p>My view is a bit different. A student ready to go to college is pretty much an adult, and at some point we have to stop worrying about whether not getting an A every time will hurt their self esteem. Every kid is different, and for some a less challenging environment is the right answer, but fear of failure is in my view not a good reason. I would leave the decision to the student who can make the choice based on their past experiences - but I hope I’d let my emerging adult challenge him/herself even if success wasn’t guaranteed. Obviously if you fear your student will be completely out of their depth there… that they got admitted as a mistake for example, then that’s different.</p>
<p>My D is one who likes to be challenged and doesn’t care if she always gets an A. She will try to do her best, and if she DOES succeed at something hard - by her own hard work - she takes a lot of satisfaction in knowing she risked failing by trying it. She is also able to change direction and “fail” without it crushing her since there are so many challenges to choose from.</p>
<p>My son applied to 10 LACs two years ago and got into all. These were not top 40 LACs. He chose the lowest “ranked” of the group. I went with his decision. I will add that the school he chose to go to was not a “party” school; I probably would not have supported that type of choice. Two years later and much more confident about his abilities, he is transferring to a more competitive school. The school he is leaving has lots of good things about it and he has matured so much as a result of starting college at a school well within his comfort zone. It helped him to build his confidence and regain the academic footing he had before slacking off in high school. He easily could have stayed where he was-lots of friends, supportive professors, etc. I think, by choosing the school that was least threatening, it allowed him to grow into his intellect, if you will. He feels ready to be pushed more. He chose to transfer to one of the schools the “Daily Beast” refers to have having students with the hardest workloads. </p>
<p>I am glad I listened to him. Different kids respond in different ways, however. This may not be a good path for some.</p>
<p>My younger 2012 daughter would have a nervous breakdown going to a more rigorous school, we are all in favor of her going to the one where she is more comfortable. She will immerse herself as deeply as she wishes if she feel comfortable and secure enough. If she feels stressed or competitive she will close down and do little to nothing. As usual, it all depends on your kid and what works best for him/her.</p>
<p>Not everybody HAS to work that hard to be successful. For many really bright people, academics often takes a back seat to other things that they have going on. There really is a crowd at Harvard who will take the easy road but spend 60 hours a week on some EC, and they will do just fine. </p>
<p>A fulfilling life is about make the choices that will lead to happiness and prosperity. It’s not always the most rigorous option.</p>
<p>A colleague of mine who did his undergrad at a state school but graduate school at MIT said that he could never have gone there as an undergrad because he needed time to digest the material. </p>
<p>For those interested in evidence, the conclusions are clear: (a) what a student does after getting to college is much more important that what college the student goes to, and (b) a motivated student can get an essentially equivalent education at almost any college.</p>
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<p>–Ernest T. Pascarella and Patrick T. Terenzini, “How College Affects Students, Volume 2: A Third Decade of Research.” San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2005, p. 641</p>
<p>It probably isn’t, but that is likely because the top math students at Harvard already have had calculus and go on to sophomore level math, where Harvard offers a standard sequence (Math 21a-21b) and three(!) levels of honors sequences (Math 23a-23b, 25a-25b, 55a-55b). Regular freshman calculus at Harvard would be for those who are not that good at math, relative to other Harvard students (there is even a slow-paced calculus course offered as well).</p>
<p>On the other hand, some schools like Caltech and Harvey Mudd do make freshman calculus more like real analysis.</p>
<p>But, beyond the super-elite STEM school and honors math course exceptions described above, most freshman and sophomore math course sequences are fairly well standardized. However, not all courses are completely standardized – in some cases, a more selective university will pack the same course material in a smaller number of courses or credits than a less selective university. One example is a state flagship whose introductory computer science sequence is three courses for 12 semester credit units, while a mid-level state university in the same state has the same material in five courses for 17 semester credit units.</p>
<p>As already indicated, some “rigorous” schools pack, e.g., into one semester what some less rigorous schools present in a year’s course. I think this does translate to a better education, and is generally more stressful for students. And as already said, these schools won’t admit applicants who haven’t shown (via their apps) that they can handle it.</p>
<p>I think this is an example of a vicious cycle. To make the best of the college experience, a student should choose based on self-knowledge of learning style etc., but one of the main purposes of college is to gain self knowledge. </p>
<p>I think some kids know how they learn best. When we visited Swarthmore, my son said that he would not apply. After two years in a rigorous IB program, he didn’t want to be in what he perceived was a high stress school. He also recognized that he liked to be at the top of the pack, competing with the other four or five at the top. He made the right decision for him and is now a sophomore at another small LAC which even my husband now admits is perfect for him. (H really wanted him to go to another higher ranked school). S is challenged without being stressed TOO much. He is more involved in activities than he was in high school, but has learned that he needs to set limits there also.</p>
<p>Choosing the right school is a tough. The more the student knows about him/herself, the better the fit.</p>