In which situation would a student have more choices for college?

Parent Cafe
1

<p>The student is the same in both scenarios -- same race, and socio-economic status, and general background. Same SAT scores too. Comparable EC's.</p>

<p>Both students take a similar mix of classes, let's say a couple of honors and a couple of "on level classes" in 9th and 10th, a few APs in 11th and 12th. As many arts classes as possible. At both schools grades are similar, some A's, some B's. Unweighted GPA is identical (school weight GPA differently so they aren't comparable).</p>

<p>In one case the student goes to a large, well regarded suburban public school, serving mainly affluent kids. It's the kind of school that UNSWR loves with lots of honors, IB and AP classes, lots of EC's, and many students going on to top schools. At this school the student is very much "average", with a class rank and SAT scores right in the middle. Counselor's report shows that the student's course load is typical for this school, with many kids taking much more rigorous loads (e.g. AP's starting in 9th, with full IB diplomas).</p>

<p>In the other case, the student goes to a small, urban public school, serving a wide array of kids many of whom live in poverty. School does not have a history of sending students to top schools. Student has taken pretty much every honors or AP class available at the school, class rank and SAT scores are near the top. Counselor reports that the courseload is "most rigorous". </p>

<p>Would one situation be consistently preferred by colleges, or would some like one and some the others? Or would the two students be considered equivalent?</p>

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<p>Is this a real world scenario or a hypothetical? To me, they would be equivalent, except if a school wants to put a high value on rank, in which case, the second student ranks higher and is favored.</p>

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<p>There is more to high school than the goal of admittance to one of usnews favorite colleges.</p>

<p>It depends on the student & the family.
Some students get more out of being in the middle of the pack, where they are challenged by their peers in the classroom and where they have enough of a cohort that shares their interests to support ECs. This school may have a great deal of support from the community although it also may be difficult if you are not a standout student to get noticed by teachers.</p>

<p>The second school may be great for a student who doesn’t necessarily need to be inspired by classroom discussion and isn’t distracted when the teachers time is taken up with classroom issues that have little to do with academics.
I am not concerned if the colleges students attend are “top” schools, oftentimes students in poverty prefer to be closer to home for personal reasons, but I would be concerned if the school is split between students who are aiming for “top” colleges, and students who are not taking the IB diploma.</p>

<p>I prefer the urban environment for my own kids. I grew up in an affluent suburb, but after my H & I started a family, I wanted to be where I felt more connected with others who shared my interests & values, & we moved to the city.
But many couples do it the other way round!</p>

4

<p>There could also be a concern if the “most rigorous” courses at the second school are not all that high quality (e.g. most AP students do poorly on AP tests, and/or most who go to college struggle or need remedial course work due to insufficient high school preparation). Actually, that could also (at least theoretically) be a problem at the first high school as well.</p>

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<p>Let your kid go to the high school he wants to attend. When the time comes for college searching let the chips fall as they may. He will end up where he is supposed to end up. Do you REALLY want him in a college where he will be over his head. You really need to get past this prestige thing and do what is best for your son. If he has reasonable grades and reasonable test scores he will have 100’s of colleges to pick from, just maybe not Harvard.</p>

<p>I would be more concerned about the overall safety of the high schools. I would never send my kids to the inner city schools here, just way too many gang issues, fights, etc., etc. What I can tell you is that if he is the only, or one of the few, kids in his class that cares about getting an education, he will suffer from that. His test scores are going to be lower as a result. Going to a school where kids WANT a good education makes a world of difference.</p>

<p>Given your son is in 8th grade, you are WAY overthinking this process.</p>

6

<p>For our kids we picked a town the is somewhat of a composite of both. Academically it looks like many of the rich suburban high schools … but our town is located right near Boston and our high school has MUCH more ethnic and social-economic diversity compared to the rich suburban high schools with which it is ofter compared. For me the social experience our kids are having is as important as the academic experience.</p>

7

<p>I think the second student would have better college admissions prospects because the student stands out in comparison with most applicants from that high school. </p>

<p>However, if it were my child, and the child had the choice of enrolling in either of the two schools, I would urge my child to choose the first school.</p>

<p>The reason: At the second school, there are more factors that discourage academic success. The culture may not be academically oriented (in fact, peer pressure may actually discourage academic achievement), the teachers and other staff may focus most of their attention on students whose needs are very different from those of the student you describe, and (to put it bluntly) there are likely to be even more opportunities to get in various sorts of trouble than there would be at the first school. </p>

<p>So in my opinion, the chances that an entering student at the second school would achieve at the level you describe seem low, compared to the chances for the entering student at the first school.</p>

8

<p>We had this choice. DD left her highly ranked, very wealthy, very competitive, suburban HS to attend a much, much, dare I say, poorer HS with an IB program. </p>

<p>At her first HS, she was lost in a sea of high achieving students, unable to take the most challenging classes, and looked at as just a average student. At her current HS, she is a leader, a scholar and has found a small community of like-minded students. I don’t think, overall, that the current HS is anywhere near as “good” at the first school. But what matters is: Is the school a good fit for my child?</p>

<p>She has done well for college admissions (4 for 4 so far, with very nice merit scholarships.)</p>

9

<p>Colleges don’t compare students to one another. Often, top colleges look at the student in the context of his/her high school.</p>

<p>Your son is too young to be worrying about college admissions. Let him go where he wants- THAT is where he’ll do best.</p>

10

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<p>Oh yes they do. Especially from high schools that don’t rank. All of the applications go to the same regional rep. How hard do you think it is for that person to figure out your rank. </p>

<p>There are some kids who would be better off with the resources and peer group at the first high school, and others who would thrive more being at the top of the second high school. What’s more is that might be true with different kids in the same family! </p>

<p>It’s not a simple A or B answer.</p>

11

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<p>This is a special case. If an otherwise unimpressive school has an IB program or some other special feature that facilitates the creation of a community of like-minded students, it might well be an excellent place to go to high school.</p>

12

<p>D is in 8th grade at such a school as your second example, only it goes all the way through high school and it has a record of getting 100% of its seniors admitted to college-colleges that work well for THEM. The small environment allows the kids to get one-on-one attention should they need it, with everything from working a grade (or two or three) ahead in a subject, to help catching up. The college and career counselor will sit with families to help with college applications, FAFSA, scholarships, whatever they need. And the colleges are taking notice.</p>

<p>We love this place and though the district has several large public HS with IB, Cambridge, AP and more, we won’t consider sending our D anyplace else. </p>

<p>8th grade is NOT too early to think these things through-some of D’s schoolmates have chosen to leave, only to come back because they find that they don’t like being just one of the crowd.The school starts the kids researching majors and colleges as early as 6th grade so that by the time they’re ready to start making lists, they don’t need a site like CC because they already know what their limitations or expectations are-and their parents do too.</p>

13

<p>All things may seem equal, in this comparison. But, the “hs context” is just one starting point. When it comes time to fill out that CA, it’s often what was “in his control” that shows more about him. Whether he got empowered and how, then how he presents it. Not just grades and ECs. </p>

<p>We chose the tougher hs for the longer term life lessons, the higher expectations. For many kids, the leadership potential in a less competitive hs is what empowers them. For others, it’s the peers around them, the higher standards and harder work. It depends on the kid. No easy comparisons.</p>

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<p>sseamom- that school sounds like one in a million. </p>

<p>It goes to show that there are other considerations. Pick the one that your child is most likely to thrive at emotionally, socially, and academically.</p>

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<p>It IS, Penny. It’s a public school supported by a foundation and deliberately kept small. Most of the kids are in the local feeder area (there’s an elementary school next door) but some of us come from other districts. At least one kid is homeless and there are children of doctors and lawyers. The ethnic diversity is about the best I’ve ever seen, and it’s just fantastic to see what keeping the expectations high for everyone with the right support can do for families. Anytime I fuss about the drive down there in the pouring rain, I remember why its all worth it. My D is thriving at this school, and despite being a “gifted” kid, until we landed here, was NOT at home in any other school we tried. School is SO much more than the right classes and the right SAT scores. In fact, I’d venture that in the end those are near the bottom of what makes this school do so well.</p>

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<p>sseamom- this sounds like a caring and supportive school for everyone.
Maybe something to consider about a school is not only how the top students do, but also how the students at the bottom do as well as the social climate.
Ultimately, like college, the best school is the one that meets the child’s needs.</p>

17

<p>We live in NYC and at the end of the totally lunatic queen-of-hearts public high school admissions process, my daughter had a choice between a gigantic academically rigorous school that admits students via an exam, and a tiny school with an emphasis on marine careers that was about to start its first year at a newly-renovated island campus where they would grow oysters, learn SCUBA and all kinds of other neat stuff.</p>

<p>My daughter is now a junior at the larger school and I am very glad. She is in the middle of the pack, but she’s learning a huge amount and is already taking AP classes 3 and 4. I am sure she would have been at the top of the class at the other school, and she’d have absolutely no problem taking every single top-level class given there. But she would not have been as well-prepared for college work, I’m sure of that.</p>

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<p>I think there’s something to be argued for school 1, because the students there are likely to be better prepared for college. The high school my kids attended really had the best of both worlds. It’s a big school, urban/suburban with kids of every ethnic variety and economic class. There are parents in our community that thinks it is scary, and there are kids who are not well served by it, but unlike your example, there are always a critical mass of high performing kids who attend very good colleges.</p>

19

<p>Thanks everyone!</p>

<p>Yes, these are both real schools my son is considering for next year. To be clear, I’m definitely asking the question, “where would he be happiest”? and “Where would he do best?”, but the answers to those don’t seem clear. Both schools have strong performing arts programs which is important to him, but school A’s is far less intense which would allow him to play sports, and to be involved in other EC’s. School B is a magnet for the arts and expects students to devote all their time to their art, so it has no clubs or sports at all. I think that in many ways that is the biggest piece of the decision and one my son has to make for himself. Does he really love theater more than football? Would he feel unbalanced if he had to choose just one? So, we are asking those questions, we just aren’t asking here because this is a college forum.</p>

<p>Another big factor is the diversity piece. School A is far more diverse in every way except economics. It’s got kids of all religions, and races, and who speak different languages. It does have some low income kids, about 10%, but School B definitely has more. School B is predominantly one race/culture/language. </p>

<p>Safety is not a factor, I don’t have concerns about the student body at School B or the neighborhood it’s in. On the other hand we’re happy in our current neighborhood and it’s got some big advantages, such as great public transportation, walking distance to the specialist my son sees for his chronic medical conditions, and walking distance to my elderly mom who has health needs and sometimes needs support. School B would mean moving to a new neighborhood which is a big step. It would also be a hard step to undo if it didn’t work out, as we had to wait a long time to get into the affordable apartment complex where we live now. </p>

<p>All this is beside the point, though, because what I really want thoughts on from you guys is comparing the academic programs. We’ll talk with the schools’ arts staff, and the coaches, and other parents about other issues. For you guys, my question is this:</p>

<p>My biggest worry about School A is the “pressure”. There are many students there who push themselves incredibly hard, working many years above grade level in math, and taking APs starting in 9th, and honors everything. My understanding is that the pressure to do this comes from the parents and the kids and not the school, but it’s still very significant. For my kid, who loves his EC’s, and who is a strong but not stellar student, I worry about the pressure. He’s a kid who is hard on himself and I worry that he’ll either want to bite off more than he can chew, or if I force him to scale back he’ll take that as a sign that I don’t have faith in him. For my particular kid, I love the fact that at School B they can only take 2 honors and no APs in 9th grade. I love the fact that there’s no math past BC calc. That seems like plenty without being overwhelming. At first I felt like this alone was reason to move him, but recently I’ve been feeling like it would make more sense to simply be insistent that he limit himself, that moving to a whole new state, and giving up sports he loves is too big a sacrifice. I wonder what it would be like for him to go to School A, and simply take the same (or similar) classes that he’d take at School B (minus 1 art class, since A has 2 electives a year, and B has 3 periods of arts). </p>

<p>All of this will be moot if he doesn’t get into School B, or if he comes up with a clear preference. I’ve told him this will be his choice, and if he comes to me and says “I 100% want a certain school” then that’s what we’ll do. But at this point he’s wavering, and asking a lot of questions, and wanting more information, and so I want to support him with clear honest information.</p>

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<p>I don’t think it will make much if any difference at all, since this student is not likely to be a candidate for one of the most selective schools where ever he might end up going. As you go down the selectivity scale so that you are not looking at schools that accept a third or less of their applicants, things start making less difference. You need those triple axels and competitive showcases when you are applying to the most selective schools. Not so as you are looking at schools that accept about half or more of their students.</p>