Choosing a College for the Budding Career Scientist_A CC Manifesto

I posted this entry on another thread and was asked to make it a thread of its own. So here goes.

Within this other thread, there was some discussion about choosing an undergraduate school for students interested in science. I just wanted to give my perspective on choosing an undergraduate college for science majors (especially those interested in a research career) and what I deem to be important.

My background, not to sound boisterous but just to give an idea about my experiences. I have a phd in biology (molecular bent), have spent twenty years in research, been head of a lab with continuous NIH funding for many years, and directed a summer research program for undergraduate students at a research hospital. My undergraduate degree was from a large state flagship university, phd from an ivy league school, and postdoc research at a southern ivy university. (My D who is interested in science will attend a LAC)

For a student considering entering a research career, hands down the most important aspect of choosing an undergraduate school is the opportunity to participate in hypothesis-driven, open-ended research, not cookbook stuff performed in “lab classes” attached to courses. Research done in grant-funded academic labs is so different from lab courses that the student without such research experience will have no idea what their career choice is truly like.

Heads of research labs don’t spend time in the lab… they spend most of their time an office reading and writing or giving presentations. Learning how to write effectively and speak in front of others is invaluable in a science career.

There is a lot of rejection in being an academic scientist. You need a tough skin. Most hypotheses are not validated, most experiments don’t “work”, papers get rejected, most grant applications are rejected (NIH funding rate of a grant is <10%… it’s like applying to an ivy league school for your entire career!).

As an undergrad, the hypothesis-driven research I think is crucial can be performed at a LAC department with good facilities and knowledgeable faculty or at a large university. For undergrad, I don’t think this matters too much. Just get in a lab with a pipet in your hand doing experiments where 1) you don’t know the answer beforehand and 2) you have to analyze and interpret the data. This is very important. If neuroscience is your career goal (for example), it doesn’t matter if the undergrad college has a neuroscience major. The actual research topic is unimportant at this stage, but mentorship is huge. I can’t stress this enough. Someone needs to teach you “how to do science”. Also huge is the opportunity to actually get in the lab… this may be a drawback at some large research universities and is a strong point of many LACs. You may not be performing epigenomic research at a LAC lab, but it doesn’t matter… what matters is learning the hands-on scientific process.

As is well-known, faculty at large universities are not there for the undergrads; they are there to get funding for their lab to continue their research. Obviously, this is not a recipe for great undergrad teaching. They are there to mentor graduate students and postdocs… again largely as a means to get data for their publications and grant applications. Of course, there are some faculty at large universities who also focus some attention undergrads, but this is an exception rather than a rule.

If you happen to attend a LAC-like school, perform research in a grant-funded lab during the summer or during the academic year (if the LAC is close by a medical school, independent research institute, or research hospital). There are a plethora of such opportunities, both in formal programs and informally (just ask and, more importantly, show interest and a willingness to work hard). This will get you exposed to life in a grant-funded lab… it’s a completely different animal than a lab at a LAC.

Graduate schools are looking for applicants that do well in undergraduate courses, are motivated, but also have some lab experience. You can attend a top research university for graduate school from a “lower level” college. It’s on you.

Manifesto over… good luck to all!

One of my kids went to MIT, and I think the comment that faculty are not there for the undergraduates absolutely does not apply. I observed exceptional mentoring- and my kid was not a superstar by any means. The UROP system basically guarantees research experience which is there for the taking; the grad students in the lab were a huge support system for the undergrads but did not displace the faculty; and the hand-holding during the early stages of the research projects was phenomenal. My kid got staffed on a project after a three minute interview with the professor- one of the questions was “Can you program in X” (some language the team was using for simulations) and when my kid answered “No” the professor responded, “That’s ok, we’ll teach you”. And they did.

So while I agree with much of what you say, you give large universities a bum rap. I don’t believe the MIT experience is an exception.

My son-in-law is a neuroscientist, he got his BS in Biology at WPI. He worked in a research lab at the UMass hospital in Worcester - and - was included on a publication as an undergrad. WPI is obviously not a LAC - we met many students there who went there specifically because they would never have to take an English class again - but it is a small school with a lot of opportunities for students who are looking for them.

MIT only has 4,500 undergraduates.

Sorghum- you wouldn’t describe MIT as an LAC. So I’m disputing the claim that professors at research universities aren’t focused on undergrads. This is a claim that is often asserted on CC and just doesn’t jibe with reality. SOME professors at research U’s have little interest in teaching undergrads. But heck- SOME professors at LAC’s aren’t current enough in their disciplines to provide quality research opportunities for undergrads.

So blanket statements either way are crazy.

I think MIT is better described as a “LAC-like school” than as a “large university”.

I think the “LAC like” designation is commonly used when discussing Lehigh or Bucknell and other schools which have strong programs in the sciences but are not on the scale and scope of UIUC or Michigan. Thinking about MIT as an LAC-like school seems crazy to me.

But to each his own.

MIT is a very special place. It is certainly not typical.

@dadof1 - Excellent on-target post. Thanks!

While I am sure there are LAC professors doing worthwhile research, dh says he has rarely seen posters at meetings or read papers from professors at LACs in the most important journals in his field. Our nephew, who attended Rice as an undergrad, was invited to do research in a lab during freshman orientation week. He is now working on his PhD at Rice. I don’t think Rice is unique in offering research opportunities to undergrads. We have friends (PhDs from Caltech) who chose to teach at LACs and they have admitted to us that they really don’t keep up with current biology and barely understand what their son at MIT is up to. I don’t know if they are representative of LAC professors, but my impression is they are so busy teaching basic biology they have very little time to do any research.

Research Experience for Undergraduates was set up by the NSF with students at LACs and other schools that don’t have much research funding in mind. It allows you to do research over the summer all expenses paid plus a stipend, which could lead you to be published and get some solid LOR. When applying, they look at the school you go to and those that don’t have much research opportunity get priority.

Nice info…but I’m curious…what is a “southern Ivy”. So far as I know, the southernmost Ivy League school is Penn…or maybe Princeton, neither of which would be considered a southern school.

I was also thinking that REUs allow students undergrad research experience.

For students who can’t afford to go to LACs with research opportunities or schools like MIT, some large public universities have specialized undergrad research opportunities. Our son is part of CBH at UA. CBH’s entire purpose is undergrad research. UA has had numerous students from CBH named Goldwater Scholars.

My nephew at Rice is now doing his PhD at MIT actually not Rice. Mistyped! He was a Goldwater Scholar as well. REU’s are nice, but it’s also nice to do research during the school year.

Mom2 . . . : I can think of a whole bunch of large public universities that are “UA.”

It is Alabama. Here is a link to the program description: http://honors.ua.edu/computer-based-honors-program/

This link is a list of projects presented by students last semester: https://live.cbhp.ua.edu/schedule.php

My son attends the University of Wisconsin and is a genetics major. He has been working as an undergraduate researcher since his sophomore year. UW is known for many opportunities for undergraduates to do research in majors across the board. If an undergraduate student wants to participate in research, there are a lot of opportunities. The student just has to seek them out.

Thanks, @dadof1. Any advice on how to secure a summer research spot? My son is a biology major at a LAC, is doing research on campus this semester, but would like to find a SURF experience closer to home for the summer. Any insight into what the programs are looking for in a SURF candidate? Grades? Research experience? Something else on the application? I’m a humanities gal, so my institutional knowledge isn’t much help to him :wink:

Many of the deadlines are February 2. Your son should ask for letters of recommendation soon to meet the REU deadlines.

http://www.nsf.gov/crssprgm/reu/list_result.jsp?unitid=5047 A list of bio REUs. In addition to transcripts, he’ll need a couple of LOR, write essays about how the REU will further his career goals, describe previous research experience, etc.