Choosing A School That Is Better For Your Major Over A School That Is Better Overall

Applying to College
81

<p>ahhahah. Mightynick, I can't believe you are still obsessing over this. Do you really need that much confirmation that UM is superior to finally rest assured?</p>

<p>I personally think that overall reputation is a more constructive decisive factor than a better ranked department--unless, of course, your major is unusually obscure. If the school has a better reputations, the general quality of the facilities and student body(selectivity) will likely be more advanced. So, although the department might have more money and graduates, the people enrolled in the major will be more dedicated and the facilities will be better preserved and modern. Many public schools are better than harvard for engineering, yet I would not turn harvard down for MIT?berkeley/etc.</p>

82

<p>I personally think that overall reputation of a school can be useful and helpful for students without a good idea of what field of study they want to pursue - wouldn't it be terrible if one were to go to a school exclusively for their drafting department (like Cal State San Luis Opisbo) only to find a few months later that it's exactly what they didn't want to do?</p>

<p>However, on the other hand, departments that are well known and well respected are often so for a reason - professors can have connections outside of campus, with grad schools (my interviewer for U Chicago told me her Chemistry professors went to school with her grad school admissions dean or something) or employers.</p>

83

<p>
[quote]
Sorry, USLAri - I disagree. I've been teaching myself Japanese for the past three years. I've put a LOT of self-effort into it. But, without a teacher and classmates there, I haven't learned as much as I could have over these last years. I also don't think the "top schools" have excellent Japanese programs. Columbia's, for example, is underdeveloped. (They're also not very helpful to people looking for information.) You'll get a better education at the schools with better departments.</p>

<p>And believe me, you'll get chances for application everywhere.</p>

<p>The top schools are on top because of MONEY. It's a corrupt system. Surely you know that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>First off, it's UCLAri...</p>

<p>But that aside, how do you know that Columbia's Japanese language is no good?</p>

<p>And yes, top schools are on top because of money. But guess what? Money is what gives schools the chance to develop facilities and to hire the best faculty. I know you may have an issue with that, but money is what lets schools build the best labs, woo the best people, and put together the best programs.</p>

<p>I personally see no problem with that.</p>

84

<p>Overall reputation (and more specifically, things like endowment per student, full-time faculty per student in the most popular departments, spending per student, research expenditure per student, % of class who are NMSC National Merit Scholars, and other variables that vary ENORMOUSLY from one college to another, yet aren't often so clear from the "rankings") should be more important factors than the particular department reputation. You should generally speaking go to "the best school you can get into."</p>

<p>I would still look into department reputation, of course, but keep in mind that the rankings are often heavily biased towards the schools with the largest -- not necessarily the best -- programs. To use just one example, Purdue often comes up near the top of engineering rankings because it has such a large department with so many students. I call this the "McDonald's Effect": McDonald's is well known, but in terms of quality it's not #1, even in french fries. But when you look at quality-based rankings, which measure the quality of faculty and students, schools like Princeton, Yale, Caltech, and Rice are at the top while Purdue is way down the list. A better way to look at department reputation is to talk extensively with students and faculty in that department, see where students go after they graduate, and look at the true student to faculty ratios by calculating them yourself for a single department. Also, sit in on a few classes. Again, don't base anything on what you "hear" about such and such's CS, etc., or what the rankings show you. In many cases, the "overall reputation" is a much more accurate picture of the quality of undergraduate education in a department than any individual department ranking you can find. Also, remember than more than half of people switch majors while in college.</p>

<p>Beyond that, also go for "fit" - if you aren't happy, you're not going to take advantage of college to the fullest. But again, don't limit yourself to what you "hear," or limit yourself to schools that fall within a particular category (urban, <2,000 students, etc.) because you'll be overlooking a lot. Visit a bunch of schools for 2-3 days each, including a weekend day, sit in on tons of classes at each and really try to figure out what you like or dislike. I wouldn't say "fit" is more important than overall academic quality, given the enormous variation in quality between the top schools and the "lesser" tiers, e.g., the enormous gap in undergrad educational quality between say HYP/MIT/Amherst and Northwestern/UPenn/JHU/Columbia/Tufts, but it is very important.</p>

85

<p>^^^I was following you right up to the end, but I'm confused about your last statement...do you really mean to say that there is an enormous gap between the undergrad educational quality of HYPMS and Northwestern, JHU, etc? Because while I would agree that there is some gap, I wouldn't by ANY stretch of the imagination call it "enormous"...in fact I would call it quite tiny.</p>

86

<p>^^ Look at the endowments per student - there are, in my opinion, very significant "gaps" between #1 and #8, between #8 and #30, or between #30 and #100 - and while that's certainly not the only way to look at things, as I said above, and there are other factors at play, particularly as you go farther down the list of schools where differences are less stark and start asking how the money is used, the financial resources of an institution do have an impact on a number of other factors that influence educational quality: the number of faculty per student in the most popular departments, the amount of research per student, advising opportunities and many other things that I listed and didn't list above; the effects on some aspects of social life, such as extracurriculars, is also quite large. (sorry for the long sentence!)</p>

<p>Anyways, to qualify, my opinion on how important these factors are is influenced by my experience - I've spent a huge amount of time at dozens of different campuses because I am involved in a financial, strategic and programmatic consulting role to Universities (and also, very recently, as a student at several of them), and am, in some ways, intimately familiar with the quality of undergraduate education at them. I'm also pretty good friends with a few hundred alumni of various top-50 universities, although that's not where I draw my conclusions from. I could go into why there are large gaps in quality between the HYP tier and places ranked 20th or 30th, or the 20th and the 60th, but it would turn into a book. I'll write that later. For now, I've boiled it down to the advice in my post above. I wouldn't say the tiers are as strict as "HYPM vs. all the rest" but I am staying you need to invest in the time needed to do your research.</p>

87

<p>Hmmm...I get your reasoning, and I do halfway agree. Of course, many top LACs slide in between the HYP tier per-student endowment and the rest of the universities, and I do agree that it a reasonably important factor to look at. Not sure if I buy the enormous gap in quality argument, but we can agree to disagree on that.</p>

88

<p>Yes many of the top LACs are absolutely excellent for undergraduate education -- as well as very high in endowment per student (the top 12 posted at <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=4207585&postcount=19%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=4207585&postcount=19&lt;/a> , not that that's the single most important measure) -- and from a first glance I would think of them on about the same level as HYPM, Caltech and Dartmouth. You're right that there isn't necessarily an "enormous" gap in quality. As I've explained above in detail, it really requires a deeper level of research.</p>

89

<p>Endowments per student can be very misleading. For example, a larger school can provide the same or greater resources even if they have a lower per student endowment due to economies of scale. It also depends on how the money is spent. Many universities spend a lot more on grad school than undergraduate. One school may use more of its resources to emphasize an engineering program to the detriment of, say, a business program, or vice versa. Endowments per student should be considered only as a single factor among many.</p>

90

<p>Agreed, Anhydro: if you read my post carefully, it explains that what should be considered are the things that are usually affected by endowment per student -- not the endowment per student figure itself.</p>

91

<p>I'm interested in public policy and I turned down Columbia and Duke for UNC Chapel Hill >_></p>

<p>It's a thing called money.</p>

92

<p>Kelsmom wrote:</p>

<p>"I just don't think it's necessary to go the the best-known, most prestigious school to succeed in life. I also don't think going to such a school guarantees anything. It's all up to the student. What you do with what you have to take advantage of is what makes the difference.</p>

<p>Of course, some employers would choose Harvard over podunk U just because it's Harvard. I believe many more employers don't care. And there are many more jobs with people hiring who don't care. SO ... my advice is GO FOR FIT and make the most of what you are offered."</p>

<p>Kelsmom--I agree! I'm also interested in what might be a kind of reverse effect in employment for Ivy grads. I'm wondering if some employers actually DON'T want Ivy graduates because of stereotypes (rich, stuck-up, not team players, too ambitious and cut-throat, etc.--many of which are untrue for many Ivy students, of course). The prestige of an Ivy diploma might get you an interview before someone else, but then it's up to the individual to make a suitable impression. Ivies aren't the be-all and end-all for a happy life, to be sure! And turning one down for another school that the student genuinely feels is a better fit for him/her is a mature decision in my book.</p>

93

<p>I think that picking one over the other is a bad decision. In my search, I am definitely taking my major into account. However, I would not pick a school with a good major unless you like other things too. My advice (though I don't know how qualified I am to give it) would be to make a list of schools with a strong department in your major, and THEN check out the other factors to decide what you like.</p>

94

<p>Just wanna throw around a few comments here...</p>

<ol>
<li><p>LOL at the people who turn down ivys due to silly reasons (anything not relating to major, financial problems, social fit) It's like justifying why you or your kid didn't get into an ivy</p></li>
<li><p>Major, in my opinion, is more important than presitge if you definately KNOW what you're going to do. My list of colleges is based on my MAJOR because i know that I WILL go into that field (i've been self-studying the topic, marketing, since 7th grade). Go to where you will learn the most; don't get caught up in "prestige".</p></li>
</ol>

<p>If it's a top 20 school, hell, top 50 school, then it doesn't make that much a difference.</p>

<p>The Texas Metro example was PERFECT in demonstrating what i'm talking about. Same with Indiana and Sports Management.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Of course...if you're deciding between an Ivy and Community College, and finance isn't an issue...then you'd have to be pretty stupid to turn down the Ivy. </p></li>
<li><p>Like what Ally says, get a list of top schools in your field, and apply to them :)</p></li>
</ol>

95

<p>I am a prospective ecology and evolutionary biology major at Princeton. I was looking for a school which had a lot of courses in ecology, animal behavior, and conservation biology. In the fall of my senior year of high school, initially I was looking at many top schools including Princeton, Yale, Cornell, Brown, University of Chicago, Carleton College, and a few others. I think I used both sides of the "coin" on this discussion when deciding my preferences when applying. Although I liked the department at Cornell very much, its definitely one of the best, I felt that it would be hard for me to feel comfortable at such a large school. I thought my undergraduate education would be better, for me at least, at a smaller institution, so I eliminated Cornell. Then at Yale, I found that although the undergraduate experience would fit me very well, the Ecology and Evolutionary Biology department there was relatively new, after being formed from members of their former biology department in 2004. This made me think that I would prefer the department to be a little more established. Then I found Princeton to be a perfect fit. The department was small, but it has been around for almost 15 years after splitting from the biology department there, and of course Princeton is a smaller undergraduate student body with a vibrant campus. An overwhelming majority E&EB majors did programs, even their senior field studies, overseas, and the professors are very notable in their academic communities. I decided to apply there ED in 2005. </p>

<p>So this is just an example of how I made my decision with both aspects in mind.</p>

96

<p>I need help deciding between NYU Stern and UPenn CAS Econ. I'm pretty sure I'm going to pursue a career in finance, but I really do enjoy studying economics and Penn's economics program is stronger. I love NYC, but I have no problem with Phili. I do plan to get an MBA. I really want to go to UPenn because it is better overall than NYU and has a sense of community, but I also value job placement, which I know NYU Stern is slightly better at. Can someone please help me decide?</p>