<p>DD has opportunity to audtion for chorus of local lyric opera company, with good likelihood of making it. She would also like to audition for high school All State choir. They conflict with each other so she would have to choose only one. She doesn't want to audition and back out and anger someone. </p>
<p>Which is better - singing with a professional group or an acheivement she can put on her college app?</p>
<p>You don’t say what year your D is. My first comment would be for your D to choose the experience that she will most enjoy. After multiple discussions with admissions counselors, I finally get the point - it’s about the audition. Assuming that she likes them equally - I would ask if there’s any opportunities to improve her “network” by being a part of the lyric opera company and having the chance to mingle and learn from those in the industry.</p>
<p>Whichever activity is best for her voice. Ultimately it’s all about her admission audition and the rest just demonstrates that she was active in chorus. All State and local opera chorus—either one are fine.</p>
<p>Not being the parent of a vocal student I can’t speak accurately for that world, but I think most answers are going to come back with “it depends”. Is she thinking of going to a conservatory program? If so, if it is like instrumental music, then it may not matter much (if at all), since entrance to conservatories is based upon the audition only as far as I can tell. It could matter if she is angling towards a music program in a ‘regular’ school, where academics and activities count towards the admission criteria.</p>
<p>There is another factor here I see that I will throw out, and that is which might be better for her in terms of experience and learning? If she thinks she might want to head into opera performance, then singing with the Opera company chorus seems like it might be a natural fit. From what I know of all state music groups it is an honor, but I don’t know how much else they give the person involved, in terms of musical learning (just my opinion, not gospel, and of course it depends on the program and the people running it).</p>
<p>Something I am learning now, DD is behind the curve at college due to her limited stage experience prior to going. She is a late bloomer and did not enter this world of classical singing until late Junior year of HS. Almost all the others have had more stage experience. She was in all of the honor and state choirs, but that is not the same. If she is interested in pursuing classical voice I would say go with the opera company, all else being equal. Caveat that her voice teacher agrees that it will help or at least not harm her voice.</p>
<p>As others have said, the presence of All State or of a local opera chorus (unless your locality is a major city and we are talking about a nationally or internationally known professional ensemble) is not likely to make much difference on a list of ECs. The audition will be the thing when trying to get into a first rate performance program.</p>
<p>There are other issues you may wish to consider when choosing between the two. Many high schools value having large numbers of their kids get into All State and some chorus teacher get miffed if they have a singer who would be able to get into the group but doesn’t try out for one reason or another. If this may be the case at your daughter’s school, you have to weigh the potential ill will from the teacher into the equation, particularly if you were hoping for a letter of recommendation from that teacher. There could also be lost opportunities for solos in the high school program in reprisal for not participating in All States. Perhaps that matters to you, perhaps it does not. </p>
<p>At least for us, All State was a fairly intense but fairly short term commitment for which our school granted excused absence days. In junior and senior years in particular, an intended performance major has got to be very careful about time spent away from school for performances, school visits and auditions.</p>
<p>How good is that local opera chorus? I have seen opera companies that can afford to be quite selective and I have seen some that would take nearly anyone. If this is a well-respected program that will not try to push your daughter beyond where her voice should be at this age, then that could be a very nice opportunity for her. If they start asking her to produce more sound than she should, that would be a sign that she would be better off elsewhere. (I once heard a director tell a chorus to use the dynamic marking GOF, which he said stood for guts on the floor. He was exhorting a group of amateurs to sing so loud that he would be able to see bits of their guts on the floor afterward. I think nearly everyone recognized that as intentionally ludicrous exaggeration, but the result was that many of them still tried to force out more volume than they were able to produce without hurting their voices. I did not stay in that group long.)</p>
<p>How well does the opera chorus fit her schedule? Presumably, it would be more of an ongoing commitment than All State, with periods of one or two rehearsals per week and busier periods around scheduled performances.</p>
<p>She is a junior, looking at a Performance major specifically interested in Opera, currently debating between an conservatory program and university where she can get a “whole college experience”. </p>
<p>BassDad - you’re very perceptive. That is one of the concerns that we are hoping the benefits of the chorus position would overweigh. This lyric opera has good musical leadership where she won’t risk her voice.</p>
<p>I’m halfway through the “So You Want to be a Music Major” thread … good stuff so far!</p>
<p>My gut reaction is the opera experience without hesitation, assuming the voice will be taken care of. My D considered herself lucky that her arts magnet school focused completely on solo work and didn’t have a chorus. Her school always threw something together at the last minute for the choral adjudication because of some requirement by the system and they always got the highest rating, but they spent very little time on it. They always opted out of any competition beyond that. My D had been a part of a very well respected children’s chorus outside of school for years so she developed sight singing skills, the greatest benefit to choral work, IMO. They also performed with the local opera, the local symphony and in several other high profile festivals so the kids had some great stage experience that started at a very young age. I think going into auditions and school with some stage experience is very helpful, but don’t neglect the sight singing component.</p>
<p>I would agree with go for the opera program. My son has seen many kids in VP with little stage experience and it shows. My son while in VP now started out in MT so had tons of stage experience and I know he feels it has helped him a lot.</p>
<p>Generally, I would say go for the opera experience for many of the reasons sited the other poster but for some other reasons as well. If your daughter is trying to position herself for a scholarship and honors program, then there’s more to think about than just the audition to “get into” the university. I have heard that participation in non-school related programs weighs heavily in the evaluation of extra-curriculars. I have heard, for example, that participating in community opera could weigh more heavily than participation in high school musicals or all-state experience. And then there was the comment about the professional connections that can be made in an opera environment. I could say the same thing about all state and honors choruses. Through my daugter’s participation in allstate she met people from throughout the state and then was nominated to participate in “All Eastern.” From these two experiences, she ended up running into people she knew at each University where she auditioned. These types of contacts are important as well. So, I guess, like anything else – both experiences are valid – it depends on what your daughter makes of each experience. My daughter was able to do a sampling of all of them and each brought a different valuable experience. The one experience she was lacking throughout her junior and senior years was enough sleep.</p>
<p>For VP programs at the top-tier conservatories, ECs are just one of the things that the admissions commitees “may” consider, there are many others and they vary from school to school and even from year to year, depending upon the quality of the applicants- sometimes there are just small things that can help to set one candidate apart from another. Finding and taking part in musical activities out in the community would usually be looked upon as a step up from an opportunity that she would naturally have as a result of being in such and such a grade in school.
I would definitely steer your D towards the opera program. If she is thinking about a career in opera at this point, it’s probably a fair bet that her voice isn’t one which blends very well in a high school choir anyway. Those usually don’t lend themselves to the “sing out, Louise” voice, rather, they would prefer that a youngster with a big voice “hold back”, which is something she should NOT be doing. My D was able to participate in All-County and All-State as well as continuing her position of the ingenue leads in the area’s Gilbert and Sullivan group. She disliked the former and dropped it right after her junior year but adored the latter and throughout high school she could always be found on a stage somewhere, either as a lead or a featured performer. The ease she has on a stage is serving her very well in her first year of college and has even led to her being used as a model in a worshop class- not only must they be able to sing a piece, but they have to be able to stage it and act it through, something which she does with ease. If your D is a part of the opera group chorus, she will learn to take direction,no matter how many times it is changed, to hold her line in the harmony even if the person next to her is singing something entirely different directly into her face, etc. As others have said, many kids hit college having little or no stage experience. That didn’t used to be the drawback that it is now. Years back, but as late as the 80’s, a great many “stars of the opera world” were still of the old " Park and Bark" school- walk to center stage and sing the aria to the audience, never mind that the one you love is dying in your arms! The trend now is towards "singing actresses (and actors!) and that will continue to be the case thanks to the advent of HD broadcasts from the Met and other houses around the world. This is a good chance for your D- go for it!
I second KeyofH’s remark about sleep, but I’m hearing that it isn’t improving in college. D was taken aback tonight when the opera rehearsal schedule was posted and she had to swap her work-study shifts again, despite listing them on the conflict sheet.It will be great to see her for the 4 day “break” in October, but I’m afraid that she will spend the whole time catching up on sleep!</p>
<p>Mezzo-
Something you wrote seems to be an important note for those going into opera. I am not super familiar with opera, but it seems like the longtime tradition of ‘park and bark’ as you put it, where the lead is basically expected to stand there and belt out their aria, is dying off in the major opera houses. From everything I can tell the emphasis is now on great singing and acting and presentation, so it is going to be a lot harder, for example, to cast a large bodied soprano with a great voice as Mimi in La Boheme,who is supposed to be frail and dying of cancer, or have conversely the wooden tenor being the suave lover or whatever. Purists, those whose idea of opera is strictly in the technical perfection of the singing and think acting is ‘overrated’, are not happy about that,but it is becoming more and more the way things are going, if Gramaphone and the NY Times music section are any indication (want to have some fun? Go to the NY Times web site and look at the raging debate over a new performance of Tosca the Met just did, they did 3 articles on it, and the blog space was livid,lot of old farts are not happy…[which is probably a good thing, if the performance itself was good]). It would indicate that gaining experience on a stage/stage presence and acting experience are going to be as critical as the vocal training. I suspect this is especially true with the HD broadcasts becoming common, where on a big screen things not seen in the opera house become quite obvious. </p>
<p>Actually, I claim that is true across the music world, especially for instrumental soloists, that things like stage presence are going to be huge, because times are changing as the classical world tries to find new audiences. A lot more activity is going on in altenative venues, where performers are now routinely doing things unheard of in the past, like interacting with the audience, and the days of the wall between audience and stage that existed for the most part in the past is coming down. I think working on being on stage and performing in a variety of settings might be critical, even of for orchestral musicians, as things inevitably change.</p>
<p>Yes, whether appearance matters in opera is the subject of many discussions. Will the personal trainer be as important as the vocal coach? One day the phrase “fat lady sings” may be “svelte sexy lady sings” instead. I guess whatever it takes to get seats filled will happen. I just hope we don’t see Josh Groban and Sarah Brightman stunt cast.</p>
<p>Catera-</p>
<p>I don’t think Operas are going to do stunt casting (not unless Sarah Brightman can really sing operatic pieces decently). I think that vocal skills are still going to reign, if they tried to foist people off just on looks they are going to be in trouble. Put it this way, Jose Carreras, R. Villazon and Placido Domingo are not exactly lorenz melchior in body type, all three of them are unbelievably talented singers, yet all three can act and have stage presence. Some of the problem I believe is that old myths die hard,that somehow to be able to sing opera with any kind of depth they had to be big, and that is nonsense (maybe with wagnerian opera that is at least somewhat true…). Plus Opera is stagecraft, in opera they have elaborate sets and costumes, and choreography,they are telling a story, acting it out, so it makes sense that stagecraft like acting and stage presence should be important (least to me). I have seen enough opera that I know there are talented singers out there who can act, and I don’t think that great singers can’t be decent actors, if taught. It doesn’t mean singers shouldn’t be trained to the highest standards,any more then an instrumental soloist shouldn’t be trained to the highest technical standards, it just means to me more dimension, what musicality and expression are to a violinist,singing ability and stagecraft should be to an opera performer…</p>
<p>I’ve been thinking about several of these topics all week, so I guess I’ll go ahead and write. If they shouldn’t be part of this thread, I have no problem with them, and the couple before which spawned this, being moved to their own thread.
Change in the “looks department” of opera- this really took off with Anna Netrebko, who has an excellent publicist who made sure that she was featured on the " 50 most beautiful people of…" lists. Renee Fleming also hired a publicist/coach who told her to “lose that weight and stop wearing prints and cut velvet”; her weight had fluctuated wildly throughout her divorce and now, at least to my eyes, she resembles a Q-Tip, but that’s what the Met and the public, want ! Last September, when the advertising for opening night of the Met appeared , Renee’s face was plastered on massive billboards in Times Square and on shrink-wrapped busses all over the boroughs. This year, it was replaced by Karita Mattila in a low-cut gown, contemplating Tosca’s final leap. With the advent of the HD broadcasts, where everything is much larger than life and one’s posterior looks ten feet wide, it’s to be assumed that audiences would prefer to view Natalie Dessay over Stephanie Blythe. The former was one of the first to declare herself a “singing actress” and it’s now commonplace to see her singing upside down with her head among the brass section of the Met’s pit, or from the end of a plank, no more than a few feet from the conductor. No “park and bark” there. Ms. Blythe has been garnering rave reviews, and seems to be singing everywhere during the past few months but her popularity and recognition factor outside of opera afficianados is nowhere near that of Fleming or Netrebko. After saying that, I know that many of you saw “The Competition”, a film about the Met Council Audition Finals-remember, the smaller women were sent packing while the much larger women won. We were all treated to a judge’s discussion " weighing" (pardon me, I just couldn’t pass up that chance!" 
) the relative merits of the size of the singers and it seemed that, to them, at least, weight and physical appearance had nothing to do with the success factor in this field. Personally, I disagree with them and maintain that Joan Sutherland and Montserrat Caballe would not enjoy the great success they did were they to be entering opera today. Looks are important, like it or not, and even if you drape her in couture gowns, a 230 pound Renee will not garner the same attention and admiration that she will at 130 pounds. And then, there was the whole debacle around Deborah Voight and the “little black dress”!
As for the personal trainer, why not? Heaven knows, opera is a physical event, so it would be to anyone’s advantage to be in the best possible shape. Conservatories now have mandatory acting and dance classes with an eye towards creating a singer who possesses the “whole package”. They ar shaping the stars who will be up there on that stage and screen in 15-20 years
We’ve been following the " Tosca" fracas all week, in fact, I waited up until the reviews hit early Tuesday morning and from Minnesota to Seattle to London, the reviewers are in agreement- a rarity in itself- the evening came up terribly short. Peter Gelb has had his problems since he took over the helm of the Met, usually in the area of casting (HOW many Tristans were there last season and WHO is singing for the New Year’s Gala?) but this was his first “real” season, one which he selected the operas, the casts, the directors, production designers, etc. His earlier input had been suspect (i.e. Mary Zimmerman’s very poorly received production of La sonnambula last season) and his fascination with the less than reliable(ask the Chicago Lyric Opera) Angela Gheorghiu, but even if dated, tampering with a Zefferelli production can cause descension among the Met faithful. Doing it on a season opening night and replacing it with a stark, pared-down set and simulated sex scenes was enough to change the ovation given to the singers to booing when Luc Bondy, the Swiss director and his associates took the stage. The economy is bad, folks shelled out $1250 for a seat and the last thing people wanted to see was a half-naked portrait of Mary Magdalene and Scarpia being entertained by three gratuitously cast prostitutes. One can’t blame Gelb entirely since the production will be shared by LaScala and the Bayerische Staatsoper, but it sure was the craziest opening night at the Met that I ever remember! And it wasn’t just the older patrons who were protesting, the booing began before the house lights came up, growing in intensity and even spreading to those outside, watching on screens set up in Lincoln Center and Times Square. Be they old war horses or opera newbies, that production had few, if any, defenders.
Even after you thought there was nothing left to complain about, the reviewers changed course and began to look at the performers themselves, beginning with Ms. Mattila. The only two people who survived the feeding frenzy were James Levine, the Music Director who can do no wrong and Finnish baritone Juha Uusitalo, who was supposed to play Scarpia, but withdrew due to “illness” the week before!
cartera- your thought of that “stunt casting” may keep me awake tonight, what an awful idea! But then Lord LW could have another reality show, " How Long Can Violetta Linger?" It could be shown on BBC America in rotation with his other “newest star” specials to go with his hunt for Joseph, Maria and Nancy!! We, a panel from CC could pick the next Violetta who will make her debut at Covent Garden… I can see, and hear, it now…</p>
<p>Of course, I was joking about the stunt casting, but there is a serious problem with opera audiences - or lack of them. The number of houses that have closed is staggering. What would it have taken for these opera companies to remain open? A naked Nathan Gunn? Is appreciation of the vocal talent enough? Look at the stunt casting on Broadway - Clay Aiken?</p>
<p>Maybe what it will take is already in the works- I think the broadcasts which bring opera to those who otherwise wouldn’t be able to get to the larger metropolitan areas, and who couldn’t afford to fork over $250/ticket are a definite step in the right direction. The Met’s idea of 3-consecutive night ticket package fits in plans for those who can travel for a long weekend (if only they weren’t so determined to include a night of a less-than-attractive opera in each one of those…). Companies are going to have get creative to attract an audience that will grow at least at the rate that the reaper is taking those on the other end of the scale! Even YouTube snippets, posted by music-lovers and also by companies such as Los Angeles and Seattle, whet the appetite.
As for your idea concerning Nathan Gunn, cartera, I know that the entire third floor of my D’s dorm would be lined up for that performance!!</p>
<p>A naked Nathan Gunn?</p>
<p>That would be a yes.</p>
<p>Mezzo-
Your thoughts are right on (though Geogriou’s flakiness is not exactly unknown in the opera world <em>lol</em>), and if looks and stage appeal can bring people to the opera, why not, as long as they don’t sacrifice the artistry. Stephanie Blythe is a fantastic singer, and I wouldn’t want to see her or others who may not fit the ‘vogue model’ type, be shut out of performances, but I also think that like it or not, opera is also a form of entertainment, and also requires an audience, so if having attractive singers (which, btw, should apply to men as to women, fairs fair) and people with stage appeal and yes, even ‘audience appeal’, can help bring new audiences in. I haven’t seen this new Tosca, so I cannot say how good or bad it is, it might be complete schlock, but Gelb at least is trying, rather then simply sitting on past glory, and I think, missteps and all, that Gelb is the future, where opera in effect competes for people’s attention, rather then expects audiences to come to them in humble submission, to be part of the ‘elite’ that goes to opera. It was Gelb who brought the idea of the HD broadcasts, which according to some acquaintances was a battle in itself, the old guard was shocked at the thought of doing something so ‘cheap’ or similar words, and they have been a smashing success. The 19 century values that opera and classical music have clung to, the rigid almost class structure, the idea that opera somehow ‘stands apart’ from modern society is a problem IMO. </p>
<p>Interestingly enough, I was reading an article the other day that sort of sheds light on the background to all this. Anne Akiko Meyers,a well known violinist and performer, was talking about how rapidly the music business is changing, that when she started out, she was part of a system that went back a while, where the management companies and the record companies basically controlled almost everything, where performers played and went what was dictated. Today, performers have to handle a lot of their own careers, with websites, and finding unique peformance opportunities, and also are finding out that they are competing, not just with other performers, but with apathy and unknowing on the part of many people, and are finding that instead of ‘if you play, they will come’, they are finding they need to work at marketing themselves, at reaching out, at doing things to bring themselves out there to audiences. It takes incredible talent on their chosen instrument, but it also takes putting themselves out there that also resonates with audiences, and the new audiences are not the old ones. </p>
<p>Obviously, there is a line out there, I don’t think the Met should hire no talent pop singers lypsynching to heavily worked over recordings, with gyrating nude singers a la mtv, but if you can sell a production of Carmen with a Carmen and Don Jose who not only sing Bizet’s music, but also burn up the stage, why not? Opera should be a lot more then simply a form of recital with props, which is what to me it was with ‘park and bark’, the same way the classical music is a human endeavor, for human audiences, and is not simply about playing the music as written with technical perfection, but expressing it and sharing it:).</p>
<p>Thanks for the hijack ;)</p>
<p>The offer came in today for the opera company and she told the HS director she would not be auditioning for honor choir. The director appeared to take it well. I hope there are no repercussions in the future.</p>