Choosing among safety schools...

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>Can anyone give insight into the following four schools: Oregon State, Washington State, Colorado State and the University of Utah?</p>

<p>All are being considered as safe admits for next year AND because through WUE they are similarly priced. They all have similar USNWR engineering rankings (all tied for 64 with the exception of Oregon State at 75, a distinction that makes little practical difference). They all have ABET accredited ME. They are all in "pretty" areas. The only standout is that Utah's graduation rate is lower.</p>

<p>All other "safety" options have been ruled out for various reasons. </p>

<p>So, if you have any insight into the quality of these programs or the engineers they produce, feedback would be greatly appreciated. If it were you, which two would survive and why?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>If you are looking at graduation rates, consider them in context of the admissions selectivity.</p>

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<p>ucbalum, your insight is always appreciated.</p>

<p>All four of of the schools are similar in their selectivity, not very. :)</p>

<p>Within Washington and Colorado, neither are the state flagship, nor are they the top rated engineering programs, trailing UW and CU Boulder respectively. Oregon State is the top engineering program in Oregon. The U is Utah’s flagship, but I believe their graduation rates are impacted by several things. First and foremost, Utah’s schools aren’t as strong prepping students as Washington, Oregon and Colorado. I’m sure they are more heavily impacted by women marrying out and men leaving on church missions and not matriculating after.</p>

<p>With all of that said, I’m trying to differentiate them both from each other and from the experience a student might have at a higher ranked state school like UCB, UIUC, or Purdue.</p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

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<p>OSU no longer participates in WUE: <a href=“This page could not be found | Undergraduate Admissions | Oregon State University”>This page could not be found | Undergraduate Admissions | Oregon State University. For schools that do, it’s not automatically given to everyone.</p>

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<p>Thanks Seattle_mom. We’re from Oregon. His stats are strong. As long as he doesn’t wait until the last minute after all WUE slots are gone, he should be fine.</p>

<p>On a broader note, are schools of this caliber, ones that are decent, but not considered great, all ABET accredited, to be viewed sort of generically? There are metrics that can differentiate them like research dollars, but I’m not sure they’re all that meaningful for undergraduate education. Maybe it simply boils down to non-engineering things maybe even non-academic intangibles.</p>

<p>Still looking for program input. Thanks!</p>

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<p>From what I understand, an LDS mission is typically two years, so a male LDS student who goes on a mission in the middle of college years would graduate in six calendar years he takes an ordinary four years in school, but would fall outside the six calendar years if he needs even one extra semester.</p>

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<p>To elaborate on this, consider them in context of SAT scores and GPA of the student body… some people might confuse “admissions selectivity” as acceptance rates.</p>

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<p>fractalmstr, thanks. I am aware of what you’re saying. For instance, WPI has an acceptance rate of over 50%, but has a 75th percentile CR/M SAT of 650/730. The population that applies is generally, through self selection, stronger than that of a typical public.</p>

<p>With that said, CSU, OSU and U of U are all basically the same, at least when viewing the broad, non-engineering applicant pool. The stats of 75% CR/M, acceptance rate and 6 year graduation rate, as reported in the 2013 Fiske Guide, are below. Washington State has been omitted, because it isn’t in Fiske, but I suspect hunting down the IPEDS data, will show them to be similar.</p>

<p>CSU 620/630 81% 62%
OSU 590/620 82% 60%
UofU 630/630 83% 57%</p>

<p>Based on how the SAT is scored, there’s really no statistically significant difference amongst any of them.</p>

<p>How does one figure out the differences, if any, between their engineering programs?</p>

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<p>[Western</a> Undergraduate Exchange (WUE) - Admissions - Colorado State University](<a href=“http://admissions.colostate.edu/westernundergraduateexchange]Western”>http://admissions.colostate.edu/westernundergraduateexchange)</p>

<p>He will need to meet the eligibility at CSU, not automatic for WUE rates. I do like the city and nearly moved there a decade ago. My daughter will be visiting with an eye on studying Biology. (Just a note: also rated behind Colorado School of Mines)</p>

<p>At WSU, the average ME student will have significantly higher stats than the average non-engineering students. It is used as an in-state safety for its auto-admit of 3.5 GPA students, but is also a first choice by many because of their emphasis on UG teaching. One common gripe from UW tech majors is the reliance on TAs. My son’s Fin Aid to WSU, if it’s important, was terrible - nearly all loans - as state budget cuts take their toll.</p>

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<p>Thanks Magnetron. He should be successful in getting WUE at any of the schools as long as he doesn’t wait to apply until they’re all gone (which he won’t). </p>

<p>Now it’s just a matter of deciding which two of the four will remain on the list.</p>

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<p>That is, of course, a very difficult question to answer. You will likely receive differing opinions from everyone… some people point to metrics (i.e. SAT/GPA, graduation rates, national school ranking, etc) to answer the question of “which engineering program is better?”, while others will have a more holistic approach at answering the question. </p>

<p>I tend to be the latter of those types. Trying to draw a single conclusion using a number of [mostly] independent input factors, is simply a flawed methodology. I like to break down the quality of a school in three parts: the quality of the inputs (students), the quality of the school (faculty, facilities, atmosphere, support), and the quality of the output (the graduated student). In order to draw a solid conclusion as to which schools are best, you need to look at all three parts. The problem is that most of the rankings we see today (i.e. US news, Forbes, etc) consider only the first and second parts (mostly the first part). Most of the objective metrics (SAT scores, GPA, graduation rates) are simply inputs to the ranking equation, that fail to look at the product being produced (i.e. the quality of the graduated student). These rankings, in a sense, imply that the quality of the product will <em>likely</em> correlate very well with the quality of the inputs (this is the “quality of the graduated student as a function of the quality of the student as he/she enters the school” correlation). In some cases this correlation can be made safely. However, what about the quality of the graduated student as a function of the quality of the school? The quality of the school can, without a doubt, influence the quality of the graduated student. This last part is what’s missing by using the national/regional rankings to decide on the best schools for kids to go to.</p>

<p>To answer your question directly though, the think the best way to determine the differences between engineering programs is to first ensure the schools are ABET accredited. Second, you’ll need to do your own research to find out which schools you’re considering have the best reputation in your field. The best way to do this is to find out which companies hire from these schools. What is the caliber of each company? Would you be happy working for these companies? </p>

<p>Sorry for the long-winded answer… The bottom line here is that there is no “easy” metric-based way of accurately determining the quality of a school’s engineering program. It takes a bit of research, on your own, to find out what the real world thinks of your schools of interest. Engineering is not really a prestige-driven industry, therefore, you can’t always correlate high student body stats with best choice schools, because engineering schools on their own do a pretty good job shaping students to become good engineers.</p>

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<p>fractalmstr, long winded answers are actually GREATLY appreciated. I figured here had to be deeper ways to sort.</p>

<p>I was missing the “third piece” of the equation completely, employers’ perspective. I suppose another measure might be who they co-op and offer internships with. </p>

<p>The second part, what the school offers the student, is a little challenging too. We’ve looked at curricula and maps, but are having a tough time intuiting the quality of the teaching and what the institutions impart. </p>

<p>This was specifically aimed at safety schools, but opening it up o even a broader scope, and focusing only on the undergraduate experience, how does one gauge what the institution adds to the equation. Maybe more bluntly, the quality of entering students and active interest of employers aside, what separates a school like UIUC (I could have sworn that it was Champaign Urbana back when I lived in IL) from Colorado State?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>A school with stronger entering students may be able to pack more material into a course due to the expectation that the students will be able to handle that. But it is not a given that a school will actually do so, and the scope where schools vary this way in engineering is more limited than in other subjects, due to the floor imposed by ABET accreditation requirements.</p>

<p>Other factors can be the academic fit for the student in terms of what course offerings and research opportunities are there in the major(s) of interest, based on the faculty’s interest (e.g. in mechancial engineering, there may or may not be extensive aerospace, naval architecture, or vehicle related electives). On-line catalogs, schedules, and faculty rosters can help here.</p>

<p>Checking the schedule to see whether core courses for the major are offered every semester can help in terms of schedule flexibility.</p>

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<p>Thanks everyone!</p>

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<p>compare opportunities for internships. Which school has the most listed internship companies for direct recruitment? I think that would be a pretty strong metric. Check on the engineering websites or contact career services. If the schools are essentially the same then it will come down to personal fit. Check the labs to see which school is most equipped to do projects that you are interested in.</p>

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<p>Thanks. The toys (or lack there of) do speak volumes!</p>

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<p>Of the engineering schools you mentioned, Oregon State is probably the strongest of the lot, but Washington State University-Pullman is a solid program and its mechanical engineering alumni are competitive in the western job market.</p>

<p>As for the WUE, read the requirements and options carefully. In recent years the WUE has become less and less attractive, in my opinion. The list of qualifying majors has shrunk.</p>

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<p>Thanks LakeWashington. Other than the fact that it is competitive, what don’t you like about WUE? It seems like a logical place to look if you’re looking to add a second financial/academic safety to your instate school.</p>

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<p>If the WUE discount / scholarship is competitive (as opposed to automatic) at the school, then the school may not be usable as an actual safety in a financial sense, unless it is affordable without the WUE discount / scholarship.</p>

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<p>WUE is automatic at CSU and WSU if you meet the schools stated GPA/SAT criteria and apply on time, which he will. In these days of occasional randomness in admissions, I think everyone needs at least one guaranteed admit that they’ll be happy with, no matter their stats. The fact that he’d get WUE is icing.</p>