"But my niece went to UM as an undecided student in LSA. She had a few majors she would have like to major in but was not accepted to. There are majors you have to apply to get into and they are very competitive.
I personally when my kids were applying, wanted a school where you a) could get into your major of choice and b)transfer between majors once they were there. 2 things I would definitely look into."
deb922, you clearly misunderstood your niece since first of all, every single LSA students comes in as an undecided, and secondly, all majors are open to all students. Selecting a major in LSA, or in the CoE for that matter, is not a selective process. There are exceptions of course, but they are very few and far in between. For example, in LSA, the only major that is selective is the Philosophy Politics and Economics (PPE) major, and in the CoE, only BME is selective. All other majors are open to all students who pass the prerequisites.
And switching to Engineering from LSA, or vice versa, is also very easy and straightforward.
@Alexandre Organizational Studies (in LSA) is a competitive major. You apply end of sophomore year. Fewer than 1/3 who apply are accepted. There are/were some outside of LSA that you apply to after having been in LSA. Business/Ross used to be a major you have to apply for during freshman year. You also have to apply to the Ford School of Public Policy sophomore year, I believe. So if her niece was interested in PPE, org studies, Ross, and Ford – and I can see how someone could be interested in all of those – then, yeah, she could have been shut out of all her interests.
Brantly, Ross and Ford at not part of LSA. Those are clearly professional programs, both ranked among the top 3 o4 4 in the nation and justifiably selective. If someone comes to Michigan with those majors in mind, they know what they signed up for.
Within LSA, there are no selective majors except for PPE and Organizational Studies (I forgot about that one). That’s 2 out of 75 majors offered in LSA. Physics, the major the OP’s daughter is considering, is not selective.
Like I said, at Michigan, virtually all liberal arts majors are open to all students.
I know they are not in LSA and said so in my post. Just saying that the poster who talked about her niece not getting into “majors” might also have been talking about those options. Not everyone is familiar with all the administrative divisions.
“I know they are not in LSA and said so in my post. Just saying that the poster who talked about her niece not getting into “majors” might also have been talking about those options.”
But in the case of deb922, she only mentioned LSA. She never said anything about switching to another college. I assumed she meant LSA majors. Of the 75+ majors offered in LSA, only 2 are selective. There remaining majors are open to all students.
Regardless, I am not sure that bringing Ross or Ford into this discussion is entirely relevant. If a student applying to Michigan is not aware that those are separate programs from LSA, with their own admissions processes, they only have themselves to blame. Transferring to Ross is naturally difficult. The same can be said of all business schools. One does not apply to Penn CAS and then decide to switch to Wharton, or to Cornell CAS and then transfer to Dyson. Business schools are always going to be smaller, and therefore, transferring into them will usually be selective.
Ask your daughter if she wants to go to a sports bar /restaurant with her friends to watch the Michigan game on Saturday. If she rolls her eyes or gives you the stare of death… Then maybe she’s not into it. Or if not into sports then take her to your Target store. Just act like your shopping and go to the college section. If she starts looking at all the Michigan State gear then you have your answer. :))
monydad, like I said, transfers are possible, but they are selective. Students do not freely switch from CAS to Dyson or from LSA to Ross. In the past, most students who got into Ross did so by transferring from LSA. This year, and going forward, only 20% of the class will transfers. The remaining 80% will be preadmits.
“Michigan and MSU are not peer institutions. If 3ks3js’ daughter chooses MSU, she will receive a good education, but she will not have the same opportunities that she would have at Michigan, both as a student, or when she graduates.”
If her goal is to receive a good education and to work regionally after college, MSU will serve her well. But if her goal is to go on to graduate school (especially PhD programs, MBA programs or Law School), or to work nationally/internationally (especially with popular companies), Michigan will open more doors."
Come on @Alexandre, your large and comprehensive understanding of American colleges, esp UM and MSU, should make you considerably more knowledgeable than this. First off, the poster wasn’t saying UM and MSU are the same – even though I disagree with you and believe they are, indeed, peers on many levels. She was saying her daughter felt like the undergraduate atmospheres of the 2 schools were similar, if not the same. When I was at MSU and visiting friends at UM (I spent a lot of time in A2), I was struck by this too – per it’s rep, I was expecting UM to be this uber-hot intellectual hotbed where kids were grinding at the library 24/7 stressed out about grades – like what I witnessed at Columbia U. It wasn’t the case; it felt a lot like EL with a mixture of study/grinders, party folks, frat boys (and girls) and international kids. In short, UMAA was incredibly diverse … like MSU… Maybe there was a slight (and I mean slight) more of a political bent in Ann Arbor, but I gleaned more of this from some of the local, off campus newspapers more than what I saw or experienced from the students themselves. Point being: it is really hard to stereotype students at any mega large public university as UM or State …
Secondly can we finally dispatch the worn out, untrue stereotype that MSU provides mainly/only a vocational education for a good job (and in your view, regionally at best)? MSU students are studying and employed all over the world, … not just Detroit. There are many MSU alumni chapters overseas; sorry to burst your bubble. And even though MSU was not a lofty 21 in the most recent Times Higher Ed reputation poll, as was UM, it was within the top 80 universities … in the world. (similar to U.S. News’ global U ranking). A school doesn’t achieve such a ranking as the regional, vocational school you are painting.
Quincy4, I did not say MSU is not good, not did I say that one cannot receive a good education at MSU. I said Michigan is a significantly better university that opens more doors than MSU.
As for comparing Michigan’s student body to Columbia’s, I would have to agree with you. Michigan’s student body is more like Cornell’s when it comes to intellectual diversity and balance. Just looking at test scores:
UM is a “significantly better university” than MSU, Alexandre? Really?
That’s very subjective, Alexandre. And judging whether a university is “better,” let alone “significantly better,” simply by test scores is highly questionable. Judging by this standard, is UM a “significantly better” university today than it was 2 or 3 decades because its test scores increased and percentage admitted dropped … er, significantly, during that period? When comparing an Ivy League school to UM, MSU, Berkeley, UCLA, Ohio State … or any large public university, do educators, counselors, parents, the students themselves, etc, solely consider SAT scores of entering students? Aren’t admissions stats largely driven by a school’s popularity? And btw hasn’t UM’s admissions gained significantly in recent years, in part, because of its participation in the Common Application? Michigan State, as of now, does not accept the Common App.
Is UM generally rated higher than MSU? Obviously it is. But making generalized statements about one huge public university being “significantly better” than another, when both are rated among the top 100, and even top 80, in the world by more than one recognized international rating services is a bit silly. Both btw were recently deemed among the 50 “powerhouse” colleges by THE (Times Higher Education magazine of London) as supposedly being poised to replace the top Ivy/Oxbridge schools ranking wise… It is also highly questionable saying UM provides the same undergraduate experience as Ivy League schools which all have under 10,000 undergraduates except Cornell and Penn (which is barely above 10K) whereby UM is pushing 30K undergrads (while MSU is currently just under 39K). I think throwing around SAT scores and stereotypes (esp from an obviously bias POV as yours) isn’t productive for students who are assessing what’s best for themselves in terms of academic settings, especially viz a viz among 2 state schools that are both so highly esteemed both locally and internationally.
Honestly, with all the negative publicity MSU is experiencing now, I would be hesitant to send my child there currently given the choice. My main concern is the absolute certain litigation that is about to a occur and will continue to occur for the foreseeable future. Think about all the lawsuits and the many, many millions of dollars it’s going to take until this unfortunate episode is over. There is no way that MSU will not feel the effects in the coming months and years!
" I was struck by this too – per it’s rep, I was expecting UM to be this uber-hot intellectual hotbed where kids were grinding at the library 24/7 stressed out about grades – like what I witnessed at Columbia U."
“As for comparing Michigan’s student body to Columbia’s, I would have to agree with you”
Columbia has, on average, and older student body than Michigan. Its has a School of General Studies that according to Wikipedia, “make up almost 30% of the Columbia undergraduate population.” As a side note, this means that 30% of Columbia’s undergrads are entering the school at an older age AND without the stellar grades/SAT scores of entering freshman. These same students are taking classes with freshman in Columbia College. That’s a lot of students who USNWR isn’t reporting on when its school rankings are listed. Furthermore, Columbia also has about 2.5 times MORE graduate students enrolled than undergraduate ones; the exact opposite of Michigan. A huge percentage of older students who are trying to get ahead in NYC. Gee, I wonder why Columbia has a more “intense” vibe.
@rjkofnovi, the Nassar debacle will certainly negatively impact MSU image wise for some time. Exactly how this manifests remains to be seen and the closest comparative to date is Penn State whose Jerry Sandusky scandal is both similar and, yet, very different from Nassar. Ultimately as superficial as it sounds, a key factor is likely whether either Tom Izzo or Mark Dantonio survive employment-wise could have a major psychological influence. Sadly the public really doesn’t care much whether, say, the former dean of osteopathic medicine is criminally indicted – which he was yesterday, as opposed to the most popular figures on campus – the head basketball and football coaches, respectively, at MSU. The fact that a national icon in Joe Paterno was forced to resign from Penn State in disgrace – and then sadly die within a month or two, seriously impacted PSU negatively giving Sandusky’s twisted misdeeds a much stronger impression in the public consciousness. Both Izzo and Dantonio have survived the initial negative news onslaught which could have a calming effect publicity-wise even though I’m not saying yay or nay as to whether that’s a good thing considering the information we now know about their programs. The current ‘scandal’ about those 2 programs was really solely generated by ESPN’s “Outside the Lines” report subsequent (and not directly related) to perverse creep Larry Nassar. Many people, both outside and inside MSU, considered the ESPN report a gratuitous ‘hit piece.’
It seems like a lot of the people commenting are very close to UM and MSU and that may color their views. I have no experience with either and live in New England. When I saw the subject of the post I actually laughed out loud that someone would even compare the two. The perception of UM is WAY better in this area. Now I get that kids may pick colleges for many reasons, but if I were looking to hire someone and they went to MSU, I would think “I guess they could not get into UM.”
