<p>Actually your biased sentiments about lifestyle if I read your comments properly would be a violation at Princeton of RRR respect for others. And the school is very protective of LGBT rights. That is why the center and dorms were created to provide a SAFE place and the T includes transgender by the way. I have a right to preserve my values and as for institutions I believe we are a step further celebrating civil union in New Jersey! I do not know if lifestyle by the way goes hand in hand with 'affluence' it certainly is a strange way of putting it.</p>
<p>Princeton is still more conservative overall in culture than Harvard or Yale. It's about parallel to Stanford. Pretty clean cut over all, but certainly not intolerant.</p>
<p>I believe Hedoya is a troll, pretending to be on the side of LGBT but in fact trying to portray Princeton as a hotbed of LGBT culture to scare away the mainstream. Very silly. Very disappointing.</p>
<p>I am deeply disappointed by this " ad feminam " argument put forward by alumother. Many have taken delight in the progress that Princeton has made in honoring its pledge to become a welcoming place for people of diverse background. The fact that President Tilghman is in the lead in this effort gives lie to the provocative statement put forward by this correspondent. It would seem that she speaks for someone else.</p>
<p>I agree, Ernie. Libertarianism is rational, logical, and constitutional. There's also populism, which is also non-hypocritical, but to the opposite extreme.</p>
<p>No, I speak for myself. And I am boringly liberal and profoundly in favor of same sex marriages and green hair - not even requiring that they be found with the same people...</p>
<p>But I have been on cc for some time now, and I smell a rat. Could be Mr. B, could be someone new. I don't know. I have become pretty good at reading the language patterns of people trying to disguise themselves.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I also believe in preservation of certain values and institutions to keep our country's morale strong.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And who is to decide what those values are and how to "preserve" them? You? Me? George Bush? Cindy Sheehan? There is a problem here...</p>
<p>Not to belabor the point, but can Alumother provide any measures for her claim?---</p>
<p>"Princeton is still more conservative overall in culture than Harvard or Yale. It's about parallel to Stanford. Pretty clean cut over all, but certainly not intolerant."</p>
<p>Are LGBT students not "clean cut"?</p>
<p>Is the New York Observer front page article representative of Princeton's "mainstream" that she mentions?</p>
<p>By the way, Princeton has announced that it is providing a $2000 supplement to permit less wealthy students to bridge the gap between regular college dining and the cost of an eating club. It would seem that Princeton's claim that eating clubs are independent and over which they have no control is belied by this generous stipend. Is this a good use of the endowment?</p>
<p>My point in all of this was that Princeton is making a special effort to recognize that LGBT students of all persuasions were disadvantaged historically; and that the University is making substantial efforts to recognize this superordinate need. It is a strategic thrust of the University; and the time and dedication that the President displays to this, and to the advancement of women, is both symbolic and real. </p>
<p>Obviously too, the Dean of Admission has a large role to play in making certain that Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals and Transgender people are accepted at the University without the prejudices of the past...and that the University is a welcoming place where ridicule and discrimination are stamped out. Students considering Princeton should be aware of this and must be prepared to adopt these espoused values.</p>
<hr>
<p>Students don't have to adopt any values upon matriculation, aside from those required by law, as well as to respect each other, and abide by the Honor Code. If so, Princeton would not be diverse, because everyone would hold the same values. And which set of values would you choose? Those of President Tilghman? Radical Islamic extremists? Far-left liberals? Evangelical Christians? Why is LGBT rights a value that needs to be upheld? Perhaps Princeton wants to protect people who do hold those values, but shouldn't it also protect those who don't hold those values, so long as they respect those with differing opinions? </p>
<p>On another note, your statement, Palliser1, that the eating clubs are not independent of Princeton, is only partially correct. Just because Princeton gives students money to be a part of the eating clubs does not mean that 1) they have any measure of control over them or 2) the eating clubs are not independent of Princeton. Consider this: Princeton wants to make sure that its students to be on a level "playing field," so to say, when they arrive at Princeton. Part of the Princeton social life is the eating club (regardless of how Princeton feels about them--there's an effort to de-emphasize the eating clubs to an extent, evidenced by the new 4 year residential college system). If a huge part of of the social life is the eating club, Princeton ought to allow underprivileged students to join them, or risk being insensitive to their needs, etc. The school doesn't force a student to join an eating club, and it doesn't give you the money to join the most expensive ones (an average amount, I believe). It is simply a stipend to allow students to join the eating club.</p>
<p>I was told the links I provided were not working so here they are they speak for themselves.
<a href="http://dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/10/03/news/16027.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/10/03/news/16027.shtml</a></p>
<p>Tilghman prioritizes role of women in academia</p>
<p>By Michael Grabell and David Robinson
Princetonian Staff Writers</p>
<p>President-elect Shirley Tilghman
"Yes, I am a feminist. I'm proud to be a feminist."</p>
<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/president/speeches/%5B/url%5D">http://www.princeton.edu/president/speeches/</a>
Coeducation and Leadership [Oct 17]
Recruiting, Retaining, and Advancing Women Scientists in Academia [Mar 24]
Address to the Stem Cell Institute of New Jersey [Nov 11]
From Recombinant DNA to Stem Cells [Mar 31]</p>
<p>^^^ ummm, and those links are supposed to prove what exactly? Everyone knows that Tilghman is a liberal, and that there are plenty of liberals at Princeton. But that doesn't mean that there isnt a strong conservative presense at Princeton as well. That's what diversity is all about, isnt it?</p>
<p>Ha ha. I am always having to defend Princeton against the stereotype that it's too conservative. Cracks me up that now someone is saying it's full of wild-eyed <em>gasp</em> feminists.....</p>
<p>The good news is that Princeton is, these days, finally coming into its own as a diverse institution.</p>
<p>Amen sister!</p>
<p>Do you people really just see marriage as some type of glorified Promise Ring?</p>
<p>i dont know actually what the scene is at princeton concerning LBGT, but from what i have seen it seems supportive and respectful.</p>
<p>however, i understand why some would say princeton is more conservative than that of yale or harvard, which i think is true to some extent. to be completely honest, if i was LBGT i would chose yale or harvard over princeton. that just would be my own preferece....</p>
<p>however, again, i dont really know what the "scene" is.</p>
<p>weerez--
what are you saying here? it seems that you are stating that there is more to marriage than commitment...do you think that LGBT couples can't have anything deeper than commitment?</p>
<p>personally, i think the biggest problem is that the societal institution of marriage and the church's idea of sacramental marriage have the same name. if they were different, few would be complaining.</p>
<p>Guppy that is the point of my writing on this board to dispel this myth. NOT to be a troll! Princeton was conservative. It no longer IS conservative. If you are part of the LGBT community you are very welcome at Princeton. If you are a feminist you are very welcome at Princeton. And if you read the links I provided you can see that the social environment at Princeton is diverse and the faculty, Deans, administration, Admissions office and President are very very very feminist progressive and welcoming. In fact there are plans to get rid of eating clubs by introducing ways to phase them out and I think that is a bold move and a significant one too.
Please do not write off the school, please do not apply elsewhere because of this myth. Please check out my links and read them well. The myth perpetuates itself and unless someone speaks up the conservative 1950's image remains. My close friend said she was shocked to meet students who did NOT know that the president was extremely liberal. She said to me "Wouldnt you think the students would google the President, Deans and those in the admissions office to see the direction of the school rather than make assumptions?" Why limit your choices by choosing Yale or Harvard that is very upsetting to hear over and over from everyone. Why perpetuate the conservative perfect fit ideal by innuendo. Why not be proud of the differences at Princeton.</p>
<p>Hedoya, your links showed that Princeton was pro-feminist and pro-LGBT-rights. They did not show that Princeton was "diverse." By definition, diversity means that they accept not only the LGBT and feminist groups, but also conservative, right wing groups. The key there is balance. Perhaps you want Princeton be just plain liberal rather than diverse (they are two very different things). To be liberal, they ought to be excluding conservatives and right-wing groups. I hope that that is not the direction Princeton is going. It's all right if Princeton is led by left-wing liberals, as long as they respect right-wing conservatives (because they ought to feel just as welcome on campus as the liberals, right?), because like it or not, both sides will have something to offer on any given issue, and neither side can simply discard a certain point of view or value just because its labeled "conservative" or "liberal". That, I think, is how a school like Princeton can retain its reputation and standing--not by going far right or far left, but by maintaining a balance of mutual respect, and thus, cooperation among students with very different backgrounds, POVs, and value systems.</p>
<p>
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personally, i think the biggest problem is that the societal institution of marriage and the church's idea of sacramental marriage have the same name. if they were different, few would be complaining.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That is so true! Think about this scenerio: the state would only provide "civil unions," to any and all couples/mixtures. If you wanted to get "married," you would have to do it in a private church/other religious institution. The "marriage" would NOT be sanctioned or recognized by the government. I think that would satisfy just about everyone except the fanatics on both sides. (The Christian Coalition types would whine about the government recognizing homosexuality, and the LBGT people would by mad that the government wouldn't be forcing the churches to marry gays.)</p>
<p>haha, thanks Ernie...glad to find someone who likes my solution!
...and that's why i'm going into public policy lol.</p>
<p>just for interest, i'll throw out there that i'm a conservative catholic. and yet...</p>
<p>lol, I want to go into public policy too. And I consider myslf a libertarian.</p>