<p>A question - what's the difference between enrolling in Claremont McKenna and, say, Pomona (which is right next door)? If the two schools share so many facilities/resources/classes(?), what is different about going to one as opposed to the other?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>First, your diploma will say either CMC or Pomona. When you will be looking for a job, this will make a difference; Pomona has a bit more recognition among the general populace and across most fields of study, but CMC has more recognition in governmental agencies and large corporations.</p>
<p>Second, the number of classes you can take off-campus is limited. I'm not sure about Pomona's philosophy, but CMC allows you to take up to 1/3 of your classes off-campus freshman and sophomore years, and up to 2/3 junior and senior years. So if your major focus of study is off-campus, you may have trouble seriously taking the classes you want.</p>
<p>Third, some programs are closed to their specific campus. I'm not sure how many are closed, but I know for a fact that the International Relations programs are not mixed; Pomona students cannot take CMC IR classes, and CMC students cannot take Pomona IR classes. From what I understand, this is due to a difference in philosophies between the two schools' departments--CMC focuses on diplomacy and governmental action, while Pomona focuses on cultural and humanitarian action.</p>
<p>There are a few more differences, but these are the three biggest ones. I would also take into account the people, the campuses, and the dining options when making your decision; while it may not seem like a big difference, as the campuses are adjacent to each other, you will not want to walk between the two campuses every day to meet your friends/study on the quad/find something good to eat.</p>
<p>CMC is more of a party school and interacts more with the other 5 Cs while pomona students tend to stick together. (thats what my host said when i was visiting).</p>
<p>My daughter is an IR major at CMC. I'm not sure what Pomona is like but some real pluses to the CMC experience are the absolutely amazing speakers that appear four nights a week at the Athenaeum, and the readily availible internship opportunities. Most but not all events at the Ath are open to other students from the consortium, but CMC students have first dibs on reservations and are most apt to take advantage of thiese opportunities. They are also the students who actually meet and interact with the speakers, are eligible to help organize the series etc. Claremont's semester in Washington program is run by CMC and dominated by CMC students. Finally paid internships in your field are availible to virtually anyone who makes the effort to get organized and apply for one. The money is good and the resume building opportunity and life experiences are priceless.</p>
<p>It's true that Pomona is better known in academic circles, but my brother is an academic and an internationally known philosopher who has published several books with Oxford University Press on political philosophy. My daughter sent one of her sophomore government papers to him to review and his comment was that it was a surprisingly mature presentation for someone so early in her academic career. Writing had been somewhat of a challenge for my daughter in highschool, so this speaks very well for CMC's academics.
My brother went to one of the little three for undergrad, and Princeton and the London School of Economics for his PHD, so he is a hard ass when in comes to academic writing. You can't go wrong with CMC AND you will have a job when you graduate.</p>
<p>annak, when you visited, did you get the sense that CMC is big on partying? One of my son's friends came back from the Mckenna Scholars weekend and had a really bad experience due to the excessive partying. Does anyone know how someone would fit in to CMC if they aren't big on partying?</p>
<p>notaheli, when I visited CMC I got a really good feel of the partying atmosphere as well. Since I do not drink, when I was there I spoke to a current student about my worries in regards to fitting in and she said that I wouldn't have a problem finding someone who is not like that...</p>
<p>wd90 - one correction. CMC lets freshman and sophomores take one class per semester off campus, and juniors and seniors are allowed to take 2. However, if you are doing an off-campus major there is no restriction to the amount of classes off campus you can take to fulfill your major, other than making sure you are fulling CMC's GEs. </p>
<p>CMC does tend to have more of a partying atmosphere, but one of the things to keep in mind is that so does Pomona and the mindset at the two colleges is different. I remember someone on this forum saying that Pomona had more alcohol poisonings than CMC did, and thereby suggested that Pomona kids drink more. First of all, that's really not the case - CMC kids probably do drink more, though there are a lot of Pomona kids who drink. The reason for the statistic is the atmosphere around campus about drinking. Pomona tends to be stricter and makes kids drink behind closed doors, leading to more alcohol poisonings. CMC tends to be more lenient and kids are allowed to drink in the open (red cup rule in effect). This leads to a safer campus environment. </p>
<p>For the non-partier interested in CMC - do not be intimidated or even slightly concerned that many students at the college drink. There are plenty who don't drink or drink occasionally and honestly, nobody cares. Some of my best friends don't drink at all, for personal, religious or athletic reasons and nobody cares. If you want to spend your Friday and Saturday nights drinking, its open to you. If you don't, there are a lot of other opportunities on campus. Seriously, don't worry about it. (there are bowling leagues, movie nights, intramural athletics, and many more non-alcohol related activities organized by the college)</p>
<p>Furthermore, another difference to highlight is attitude towards academics, as was already touched on in the IR discussion. CMC tends to be far more pragmatic and focused on real world scenarios/solutions, whereas Pomona tends to focus more on ideology and theory. CMC is more learning to prepare you for a career whereas Pomona is more learning for the sake of learning. Don't get me wrong - there are CMCers who want to learn something just because it is interesting, and there are Pomona kids who want to learn something so that their resume looks better. But by and large, CMC is more career oriented (hence leaders in the making) and Pomona more theory oriented. </p>
<p>Another stereotype to throw at you - these are the college stereotypes that were on tshirts a while back. </p>
<p>Pomona - the ivies called, they want their elitism back
CMC - I would sell my soul for a keg and an internship</p>
<p>(obviously there are non-elitist Pomona kids and elitist CMC ones, but the trend and the stereotype is that Pomona is full of elitist snobs)</p>
<p>The Pomona-Ideology/Theory and CMC-Applied is highly exaggerated. </p>
<p>Pomona is basically your preppy East coast liberal arts college with all its pretension and left-leaning student body/faculty. If you are a flaming liberal who seeks academic success, Pomona is perfect, and so is any ivy league. PO does have a few advantages here, with the class size, community, location etc.</p>
<p>CMC was founded by George Benson in the era of progressivism, when all intellectual circles had rejected classic liberal thought. He rejuvinated this rich tradition as we followed the lines of a Chicago style Economics department and Straussian style government department (Jaffa taught at CMC) </p>
<p>Henry Salvator, a strong opponent of communism and progressivism was a patron of Claremont Mckenna and donated the college its first research institute. Today, the Salvatori institute remains strong in its foundations of individual rights and free markets. </p>
<p>CMC is a specialized liberal arts college like its sister institute Mudd. We specialize in Economics and Government. By specialize, I mean: We have a renowned and accomplished faculty dedicated to their profession of teaching. For example, Intro to Economics and Intro to American Government are requirements for all students (You can see why its a requirement). One section of the Intro class is taught by Professor Eric Helland, who was on the Bush Economic Advisory Commission, second to Greg Mankiw and is a senior fellow at the RAND Institute. For Government, Professor Jack Pitney is frequently quoted as an election/primary expert. He served as an important member of the Republican Advisory Committee. Professor Tracy Uhlmann was an advisor for the Nixon and Reagan administration. Both teach the Intro to Gov Class. Now this maybe normal for big schools like Chicago and Harvard, but we get these experts in a class of 20 with specialized resources, technology and ample office hours. Additionally, we get to know the entire department at the Athenaeum. </p>
<p>There is a strong ideological difference between CMC and Pomona. There is also a strong cultural difference. Pomona believes in student activism, protests, candle light vigils and anything the progressives like. CMC spends money on 13 prestigious research institutes that bring students into the heart of the issue and make all the facts available to them. </p>
<p>Even if you aren't a conservative/republican/libertarian, CMC is an environment where econ, gov majors can thrive and find substance to back their beliefs. The California College Democrats President, for example is a junior at CMC. There's a considerable amount of ideological diversity amongst students. However, everyone shares a culture of working hard to study and support those beliefs instead of growing long hair, smoking pot and wearing a che guevera shirt (thats pitzer)</p>
<p>Dude, have you ever met anybody at Pitzer? Your description is like 4 kids in each class.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I have.</p>
<p>This semester we had an unusually high number of alcohol related incidents. They all occurred on CMC campus, most were Pitzer students. They come to our parties, drink on our tab and then cause fights or pass out. We bear the costs for those stupid hippies. </p>
<p>When Peter Thum, an alum of CMC who founded Ethos Water came to speak, the topic of water privatization came up. The discussion was balanced with strong arguments on both sides. But a group of Pitzer students were so disgusted with even considering any form of debate or deliberation, that they contaminated our ponds/fountains with some chemical. The water was completely red and they put hate slogans next to the pond. The poor cleaning crew had to take care of it.</p>
<p>We have never had such acts of vandalism or alcohol poisoning before. The Dean of Students is even considering a ban on Pitzer students from our parties.</p>
<p>Alright, so the Che Guevera pot smoking hippie maybe an exaggeration of the entire student body. But the truth is that these students aren't a minority and it won't take too long to find them on campus. Both the faculty and students at Pitzer are far-far left. </p>
<p>Look out for our campus newspaper, the Claremont Independent. We are releasing a report shortly on their shady past of unprecedented affirmative action. Their president fudged up figures and quotas to justify many other programs.</p>
<p>I found fault with your generalization that Pitzer is all about "growing long hair, smoking pot and wearing a che guevera shirt", and I don't know what alcohol poisoning, vandalism, or affirmative action have to do with anything at all.
It's crazy to imply that most alcohol-related incidents at CMC involve Pitzer students; CMC's institutionalized alcohol culture (and its resulting fights and hospital visits) have been well documented for years.
As for the vandalism, I haven't heard about the incident to which you're referring. If any students vandalized school property then I certainly hope appropriate actions were taken against them, but again, I don't know why you bring it up. How many kids were involved, 3? Same goes for affirmative action - nobody can't respond to an article that hasn't been published, but what does it have to do with either a CMC vs. Pomona discussion, or insulting the student life at Pitzer? Come on.</p>
<p>Since this thread seems to have evolved from a Pomona vs CMC discussion to one of CMC vs Pitzer, I have to ask...I have applied to both CMC and Pitzer (don't ask me why I didn't apply to Pomona; I don't know either). Assuming I am accepted to both I am leaning towards CMC, not only because of its better reputation, but the fact that it may cost less in light of their recent "no loans" announcement.
My dilemma is, I am not really interested in government or business. I am undecided right now, but probably leaning towards literature, philosophy or pyschology.
Would I be crazy to choose Pitzer over CMC? My parents are convinced that going to the better school for less money makes sense - I just feel that Pitzer "fits" me better.
Advice?</p>
<p>I already conceded that the Pitzer generalization was extreme and not all students fit into that stereotype. But stereotypes exist for a reason. CMC is stereotyped as Jockish and career oriented because that part of our community screams out the loudest in terms of partying, academic success and career success. Similarly, the Pitzer rich hippy stereotype exists because it is the loudest and comes up often in several incidents.</p>
<p>I mentioned alcohol, vandalism and affirmative action because in response to your earlier comment. My views are not unsubstantiated, I worked with a committee at CMC to analyze the incidents this semester.</p>
<p>Now I don't know where you get your facts from because I didn't pull those statements out of my ass. There were a total of 24 incidents last semester, and only 3 were CMC students. The rest were Pitzer and Pomona students, I can't recall the exact breakup but most were Pitzer. Additionally, there were five fights, four of which were started and mainly involved Pitzer students. </p>
<p>What documented history of alcohol? The only documented history of CMC was published in 1998 under the title Civilization and Commerce: A history of CMC. Its available in the 5C library and it won't hurt to do some fact checking. The publication mentions CMC's laxed alcohol policy and the reasons for it. Mudd has an even more laxed policy, except they apply it to hard alcohol while we restrain ours to beer. </p>
<p>The difference between us and other schools with the regular strict alcohol policy, like Pitzer, Pomona and Scripps is that we internalize the drinking. In a 2000 report by the Department of Education, most alcohol related incidents involving college students took place off-campus. The drinking on CMC takes place in a safe environment where emergency facilities are there to help and not stop drinking. </p>
<p>Yes, we do drink a lot. We party a lot (I stopped this semester) But before last semester we never had hospital visits or fights as you claim. Once in a while there might have been a minor incident but marginal compared to the incidents that always took place on Pomona and Pitzer. Mudd and CMC never had incidents and we drink the most. Wonder why? Out of the 18 5C events that take place, roughly 12 are CMC. Most of the other parties are taken care of by Mudd. We trust our students and have a strong honor code just like Mudd. </p>
<p>I simply told you to look out for an article in the Claremont Independent. It was a little advertisement. I never made any claims.</p>
<p>Depends what you want. Academically, CMC is better than Pitzer. Prestige wise- no debates there either. Philosophy is better at Pomona and they have some excellent professors. Its a popular major and they get a little more money than the CMC department. </p>
<p>Literature and Psychology are popular majors at CMC. We have some of the best professors in both Lit & Psych. Back in the day Literature was a requirement for all four years! Benson and other patrons of the college believed that good writing and comprehension were essential to leadership in any field. I agree with them and wish we brought that requirement back. My best class till now has been Professor Nicholas Warners Literature 10 (mandatory for all students in their freshman year followed by another Lit course later) and I highly recommend him. You'll love the lit for their brilliant faculty and creative utilization of resources. We get some of the best writers and poets to come speak at the Athenaeum. Professor Faggen is also a Frost scholar who helped document Frosts unpublished works when they were discovered. </p>
<p>Robert Day, an alumnus of CMC recently donated 200mil for the Robert Day Scholars program to specialize in Econ, Finance and Organization Psychology. The departments getting a big boost and an increase in funds. We have an incredible psychology department. They also control the Kravis Leadership Insitute, one of CMC's top research institutes. Kravis is right at the edge of leadership research and their scholars go to Davos, Switzerland for the CCL conference on leadership for CEO's such as Bill Amelio and Larry Bossidy. </p>
<p>Now here's the downside, if you're not sold on the whole leadership thing, psych may not be as enjoyable. The best profs and resources are in this field of psychology. Also, I see organizational psychology as the dominant force in the department. </p>
<p>Finally, give Economics and Government a chance. When I was in high school I hated both Gov and Econ. I changed school and did the IB program and fell in love with Economics. They can really ruin the subject by not introducing it correctly or stressing too much on definitions. CMC does a brilliant job with both and successfully converts many students. I know many people like you who were not interested in either of the programs but then loved the subject. This one guy hated government, then took the required intro class and the following semester he was interning in DC with House Speaker Pelosi!
Even if it doesn't work out you can still go to Psychology and Literature!
CMC students love to combine majors by doing a duel or double. I'm choosing between Economics & Psychology with a sequence in Finance or Economics & Government with a sequence in Finance.</p>
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For the non-partier interested in CMC - do not be intimidated or even slightly concerned that many students at the college drink. There are plenty who don't drink or drink occasionally and honestly, nobody cares.
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<p>There should be a little more of a warning here, IMO. If the basis of your concern is that you just don't drink, you'll probably be fine. The pressure to drink is negligible throughout Claremont. If you don't like to be around alcohol or partying, that might be a bigger issue. I've had multiple friends transfer out of CMC because they were uncomfortable with the party scene, or felt that it was too pervasive, although I've also known some very conservative non-drinkers, non-partiers who've been perfectly happy at the school. It's a flexible scene, it's not something that the whole student body participates in, and it's not something that any individual should feel pressured to participate in, but alcohol and partying definitely have a strong presence on the campus, and that shouldn't be understated.</p>
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Depends what you want. Academically, CMC is better than Pitzer. Prestige wise- no debates there either.
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<p>Academically, CMC is different than Pitzer. Let's leave it at that. Pitzer has some absolutely fantastic professors, but the in-class atmosphere, and often the expectations placed on students, are completely different. I'm not willing to say, without any further elaboration, that either one is inferior. Your first sentence was perfect: it depends on what you want, and also on how you best learn.</p>
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Philosophy is better at Pomona and they have some excellent professors. Its a popular major and they get a little more money than the CMC department.
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<p>The CMC philosophy department is joint with Scripps, Mudd, and CGU, meaning that philosophy courses taken on those campuses will count as "on campus" even for a CMC student. Philosophy is not "popular" on any of the campuses, but I had positive experiences throughout Claremont. </p>
<p>To the poster who originally asked about it: there's nothing wrong with heading to CMC without planning on a gov/econ/whatever major, but do be aware that you will have to take civics and econ as GE's, and also that the topics do shape a lot of classroom discussions, even in seemingly unrelated courses. I had no interest in CMC's most popular fields, and I never had a problem in their courses, so that's not a criticism...just a note. I wouldn't compare CMC to Mudd in terms of being a "specialty" school, because going to Mudd without being positive that you (a) want a degree in one of their fields and (b) can tolerate the core would not be advisable. Yes, CMC is more well-known for certain fields than for others, but students still have a wide range of options + a good amount of flexibility. I understood the comparison, just wanted to expand on it a bit.</p>
<p>Sincere thanks, Student615. All of the Claremont Colleges are outstanding; I wish people didn't feel like it's a zero-sum game.</p>
<p>Many thanks, student615 - and everyone else who has contributed here - for your insight and advice. Now if Pitzer would only move to a 'no loans' policy it might make my potential decision a little easier. Oh well, all will be revealed in three days. CMC notifications - 3/26, 5pm PDT - midnight here in England - I will stay up...</p>
<p>I was talking about Psychology and Literature as popular majors at CMC. Philosophy is popular only in the PPE program.</p>
<p>Alright, so let me rephrase: Economics, Government, Psychology, Literature and Math are better at CMC than Pitzer. True, it all depends on you, but I'm giving honest advice. I used to be on this forum when I was in high school and I really wished some people weren't so diplomatic about college. Indeed, everything is subjective and a match is more important than academic quality or prestige (Debate on this later, I slightly disagree). The way I see it: I don't know you so I can't say what you would like, but I do know CMC and can give you my honest opinion. If I'm wrong, someone can counter me and then its up to you to research and finally make a choice.</p>
<p>CMC was indeed founded as a speciality school. Read Ward Elliots summary of Commerce and Civilization: A History of CMC. Even if you look at the campus, Pitzer Hall (its the buildings name, has nothing to do with Pitzer College) and Bauer Centre faced each other at opposite ends and were, then magnificent in size and towered above all other department buildings in between. Even the Athenaeum that we all love and cherish was the Government Departments conception and was located right next to it. (The admissions building stands there)</p>
<p>Prior to the Pam Gann administration, we were indeed a specialized school just like Mudd. Think about it, why would they create another Pomona right next to Pomona? Our success was because of this specialization and academic tradition of gov/econ with everything else complimenting it. Gann was the first CMC president who was a registered Democrat (Lot of opposition to this initially) and went on a diversity spending spree. She made diversity a buzzword for race, gender, majors, subjects, faculty (she was least successful in the last: Gov is still a mix of Straussian and Classic Liberals, while Econ is mostly Chicago style Econ-sadly chicago school of econ is practically non-existent at UChicago) So yes, today we aren't as specialized as we were earlier, but most of the money, resources are going to our flagship departments. The Gov building- Pitzer Hall is going to demolished to create another giant structure equal to the Bauer Centre Dome in height. (Read the Claremont Independent for more)</p>
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Alright, so let me rephrase: Economics, Government, Psychology, Literature and Math are better at CMC than Pitzer.
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<p>I took multiple math courses on both campuses. My Pitzer courses, on the whole, were far 'better' than my CMC courses, and I took enough to be confident in that claim (of course, I had positive experiences on both campuses). In my Pitzer classes, I learned more, the professors better interacted with the students, and the students themselves tended to be more engaged. That is absolutely a subjective opinion, but that's exactly what I'm saying here. So, would I ever tell a student who said "I want to study math...which Claremont school should I look at?" to definitely pick Pitzer over CMC? No way. There's way too much to factor in, and I have absolutely no doubt that certain students would strongly prefer CMC's math courses. I'm not just trying to be diplomatic here, I'm really trying to explain that between schools that are as well-respected as all of the Claremonts are, and that share as much as the Claremonts do, very broad (and subjective) generalizations are risky, to say the least. There are generalizations that can be made, certainly...I just don't agree with a few that I've read here. But I presume, santino, that you do, and that's why CC is so helpful. Lots of perspectives.</p>
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CMC was indeed founded as a speciality school.
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<p>Understood. I don't know the specifics, but I'm not disagreeing. Still, there are definite differences between CMC's brand of "specialty" and Mudd's. That was my only point. CMC students enjoy a far greater degree of flexibility. A student who goes to CMC and hates gov and econ might grumble about the civics and econ reqs, or roll his eyes at a few course debates, but he'll eventually be just fine pursuing another degree. A student who heads to Mudd and can't stand math or science is going to be flat-out miserable. HMC offers 9 on-campus majors, and every student must receive a degree (major or minor) in a technical field. I believe we're in agreement...I just thought that a comment in your post #8 warranted some clarification and elaboration, because students who aren't interested in gov or econ shouldn't necessarily feel discouraged from applying to CMC.</p>
<p>Alright, I posted a long response and something happened. I'm too lazy to repost, but here's a short version:</p>
<p>True, everything is subjective, but that doesn't help anyone looking for objectivity. CMC Math has more money, resources and better faculty in terms of Teaching Awards, Citations. These are the facts. Now go to Ratemyprofessor.com to get the dirty details and who knows, maybe their style doesn't suit you. CMC also has more Math majors, and therefore tends to get more attention. I wouldn't pick Pitzer (never applied) for a variety of reasons, but ruling all those out, I would pick CMC over Pitzer for math (probably Pomona over CMC)</p>
<p>Also Pitzer & Scripps classes are wayy easier than CMC. Diplomatic Political Correctness demands: There are exceptions. Now I might be biased (and when I say I might, I am) but Pitzer and Scripps are an ant in the academic powerhouse that is the Claremont Consortium. CMC, Pomona and Mudd have excelled with their faculty, students and alumni. And yes, even those dreaded rankings. Pitzers prominent ranking position: America's Ugliest Campuses, Strangest College Courses and Most Liberal Campuses.</p>
<p>The comic stereotype for Pitzer is, "Why go to college when you can go to Pitzer?"</p>
<p>True again. We're less specialize than Mudd. No arguments. I was simply elaborating on our rich history of specialization. Like Mudd, all other departments were there to well-round the students while the core was Gov. There used to be three main GE's- Gov, Econ and Lit. No Question of Civilization BS.</p>